Ulduar 25 DKP Policy Brainstorming Thread

Vegimity · Post by **Vegimity** » March 28th, 2009, 10:43 am

LOL...i think this is hilarious...i was /AFK from this thread for a while and never realized i was brought in as an example. I will tell you all why i have gotten so many pieces. First off i had to take a month off of raiding for my own emo issues. So when i came back as heals i was a blue meany and Ofie was already geared. So it was either i take them or see them get sharded. ( and i have issues with sharding an upgrade). But my healing set is still sporting some blues that i havent replaced. SO how did i get so many items. I love to tank is that answer. SO i also roll on offspec loots for prot. If i could tank 25's every week i would be a happy man. but i cant so i tank a 10 man naxx just about every week. I have a lot of loot because i have two specs that i roll on consistantly. But i get my healing stuff because OFie was already geared. I get a lot of offspec opportunities because thandren and Koko are already geared. But had i have not taken that month off i would not have had the pieces i do. I get a lot of gear without anyone challenging my rolls (for my healing spec). All that aside...i like the current loot policy and i think i would like /roll with attendance factor for tier pieces and totally awesome weapons. DKP has never been my favorite just because i dont like to track my own DKP and i feel for the DKP guy that has to track it for everyone. Yes, i am lazy and i just want to kill bosses and have fun with friends. When i left FA i went to a loot council system/ gear the officers systems. That guild no longer exists. But i know some that have left FA in the past due to DKP. so what is perfect...nothing. Lets just try /roll system with some raid attendance factors tier pieces. THis would fix any issue with people who come more often getting loot. For example, Ofie is a more consistant raider than i am. IF the two of us rolled on tier pieces my roll would be void due to his raid attendance. but other pieces we would have fair roll. I like it. i know that Ofie comes more than me. It is the way things are and he should get rewarded for his attandance. So...i Vote lets pick something and kill big bosses! ULDUAR OR BUST!

thandrenn · Post by **thandrenn** » March 28th, 2009, 10:04 pm

For those of you using DKP management as an excuse against DKP - don't. In the old days when Akuma manually updated a spreadsheet it was horrid, yes. Inori, draven and I have been experimenting with a modified version of CT_RaidTracker and eqDKP. Once everything's fully set up, DKP management will be trivial. Quering for interest and actually handing out the loot will probably take longer and be more of a headache. And it'll be that way no matter what system gets used.

The "Golf Score" system we use presently for Naxx and Maly 25 isn't being used for Ulduar. We said this back when we started running Naxx. We'd use this system for Naxx since it was simple and for Ulduar we'd have DKP going like we did in BC.

As I've said before, Zero-sum DKP worked well for us in BC and there were no large problems. It's not perfect, but it is fair and nowhere near chaotic as /roll is. It rewards attendence.

I don't see how doing rolls based on attendence is better aside from adding a random factor. So I've attended 20 raids on my Warlock and gotten a piece of loot from each. Benvolo comes along and has attended 19 raids, but only taken loot from 10. I get priority then? Crazy.

Back to the very beginning of this thread - before someone derailed it - I agree with the first post detailing Inori's thoughts on DKP and agree with Handsomo's followup to that post.

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » March 28th, 2009, 11:11 pm

So I'm changing my "I don't care" vote to a "omfg Quani is my hero". That system seems like it would work best. We would have to tailer it slightly to fit the needs of 25 man, but it's definitely doable. For starters, we would need to change the attendance part of it. imo, it should be if you don't show up, your name stays stationary on the list while people go above and below you. Once you're absent 2 straight times without notice or RL reasoning, you move to the bottom. Something along the lines of that. Second, it would be easier in the long run if the thing were divided up into category lists, i.e. "caster dps", "healing", "melee dps", and then one list with stuff that goes all around (quest items, like the Maly key and whatnot). That might be making or more complicated, or could be making it simpler, I'd have to put more thought into it. Anyhow, it's the one idea so far that has no downfall that I can think of, if you fix the attendance business. I really like it.

Quani · Post by **Quani** » March 29th, 2009, 5:02 am

I'm not a huge fan of DKP because of the constantly changing prices, if we go with DKP can we just make everything cost 25, and everyone gets 1 point, that's zero sum ... If I see another (20) 99dkp items go to someone for 10dkp for offspec only to have them respec to that spec in 4 weeks time when they've suddenly got better "tanking" gear than "healing gear" because they only paid 10dkp instead of the full price I will CRY! I will happily pay 25 dkp per item for my main spec items or offspec items once dual specs come out ... and don't give me that "What about off OFF spec??" crap ... So yeah, I vote round robin or easy mode DKP ... all items priced 25 dkp, ALWAYS. If we are currently raiding that dungeon and using dkp for that dungeon then that charge applies. If you don't want to pay 25 dkp for an item for your offspec then you obviously don't really want it. Moral of the story is ... Simplify it FFS, a rotating list, or set prices on all items, screw the hippies who don't want to pay full prices for stuff, we are not KMART, we don't have Easter specials, or 10% off pensioner days, disenchant the gear people don't want, don't umm and ahhh and offer it cheaper, just DE it, bank the shard, on our merry way to the next boss, I don't want to spend 30 mins on each boss as you try to convince people who haven't planned their gear out to take the +5dps upgrade. It took me about 20 minutes to type out ALL the possible upgrades for Quani in EACH slot as suggested by The Armory, if people are missing out on upgrades because "dey did not NO WUTUFKC TO DO!!" then ... MINUS 50 DKP!

thandrenn · Post by **thandrenn** » March 29th, 2009, 12:07 pm

Whee. 3 reloads before the page loaded enough that I could get a text box to type in.

Anyways, I hadn't thought it possible to hear Quani's angry voice through text on the forums, yet here we are

I think I'm in agreement with Offspec items being too cheap. Though maybe the real problem isn't that they're too cheap - its that people change their main specs too much. It's one thing if you change your spec to suit the raid's needs, but changing it spec or toons week to week on whim is a different beast entirely.

It's probably possibly to retroactively charge people full price for items when they change their main spec - though that could be ugly. I'd much rather people just focus on a main spec. I don't think a flat 25 dkp for everything will necessarily work as if I'm not mistaken the DKP prices for most stuff are higher than 25, so people would rapidly have huge amounts of DKP. Maybe keeping main spec DKP prices what they are, but starting Offspec bidding at 25 instead of 10 like we used to?

Btw Quani, you forgot the Blue light specials.

Quani · Post by **Quani** » March 29th, 2009, 5:02 pm

thandrenn wrote I don't think a flat 25 dkp for everything will necessarily work as if I'm not mistaken the DKP prices for most stuff are higher than 25, so people would rapidly have huge amounts of DKP. Maybe keeping main spec DKP prices what they are, but starting Offspec bidding at 25 instead of 10 like we used to?

Btw Quani, you forgot the Blue light specials.

But ... but but but ... "the DKP prices for most stuff are higher than 25"?? Well ... how? MAKE the price 25 ... I don't understand WHY we have to make this difficult With a 103.798 dkp price divided by 25, add a bonus 3 dkp becuase it's Wednesday and Blastine is wearing red underwear ... blergh! Yes some items are rarer than others, so what? Why charge more? The person with the most dkp still wins it? The 300 dkp we would charge them would still be divided amongst the raiders wouldn't it? 25 people at the raid ... each loot costs 25 dkp, each person gets awarded 1 point per loot that drops, voila! easy? If I had 20 lollies (candy) and wanted to share them fairly with my 5 kids I would give them 4 each, not say ok Steven you can pick your flavours first, so you only get 2 lollies, Nikki you can pick next so you get 3 lollies, Amber gets 4, Talia gets 5 and poor old Tony who gets the green lollies noone else wanted gets 6 of them, how is that fair? Steven would look at his 2 lollies and then look at Tony's 6 and WW3 would break out at my place regardless of the fact that HE chose the 2 he wanted ;) Why should John pay the most for that uber staff the first time it drops only to have the price change in 3 weeks time when all the other druids only want it for their offspec and only have to pay 10dkp? I'm sorry, I know I go on a bit, but you guys/we are making this SO much more complicated than it has to be I just don't understand why. The more differences you create the more problems you create, if you have different prices, rules, awards for different situations, then you will have people who won't understand or CARE what the reason is that they paid full DKP for Uber Gear and Fred got it on a blue light special they'll just be angry, and once this happens a few times they stop turning up, or guild quit.

Beiner · Post by **Beiner** » March 30th, 2009, 9:18 am

So I've been reading the last 3 posts that Quani has done and am trying to picture them in Quani's voice and accent. It is F'ing AWESOME!!! Quani - I may ask you to read these over vent the next time we raid, just for kicks . Other than that, I don't have anything really to add.

Quani · Post by **Quani** » March 30th, 2009, 4:38 pm

lol Beiner

Deathrow · Post by **Deathrow** » March 30th, 2009, 7:16 pm

Whats even cooler is that Quani gives blastine red underwear on wednesdays

acduke · Post by **acduke** » March 31st, 2009, 5:31 am

Just my two cents here to help you guys but I noticed a lot of talk of discussion about who the loot helps the most. We avoided this on my last server by using this site: http://www.wow-loot.com/ They have already priortized look based on what classes its best for so you don't have to discuss. Theres also a mod that goes with the site that will show on mouse over a star system. 5 star prist(dps) - 4 star priest (holy) - 3 star (mage). That type of thing. It makes life a whole lot easier for raid leaders. The addon is called Classloots (all one word), and can be obtained through curse.com. If you want to try it out and see how it works, download it and mouse over something your wearing from a raid instance. You'll be able to see the ratings. Don't try it on teir gear though.

draven · Post by **draven** » April 1st, 2009, 11:46 am

i put up a survey based on the thread to try to gather people's preferences. this is not necessarily going to determine what we end up using, but more so that we have an idea of what we should be focusing out efforts on. if i forgot an option, please let me know and i will add it. thanks. http://www.forgedalliance.org/DKPSurvey ... fault.aspx

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » July 10th, 2009, 11:15 am

It's Friday, I'm bored and we didn't raid last night so I dont have any wws' to look over.

So just to beat a dead horse here. I think we really need to give attendance DKP. And while I'm here I'll mention that we should give DKP to all raiders (trial rank and above) who are online during a boss kill. Assuming the raid is full and that they didn't decline an invite. If we have 30 raiders online, but can only take 25 then why do the 5 that are forced to sit out get jipped. Now granted this only happened once in recent memory but there is no reason not to have proper rules in place.

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » July 10th, 2009, 5:24 pm

The problem with attendance DKP is the people who want to show up but aren't able to because of RL obligations. It creates an unfair gap for them between the ones who want to come and also fit in the time constraints.

As for the DKP to all, it could be a good idea, but you would have to trim it down to those who actually want to go. I can see people start 'volunteering' to sit out and then just collecting the DKP while they're afk.

Deathrow · Post by **Deathrow** » July 10th, 2009, 7:07 pm

How is something that will create raids where we have none unfair? Its far more unfair to have people that show up on a regular basis not be able to raid when a small enticement may have enabled the raid.

As for the DKP thing, why are you against something that hasnt EVER happened, and would only happen if we start having a regular surplus?

If you cannot generate attendance, we are doomed to stay in the cycle that is painful. That cycle consists of wiping on the same boss, week after week.

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » July 11th, 2009, 1:48 am

If you honestly think DKP is the thing stopping our raids from moving anywhere, then just start handing it out. There cannot possibly be enough people not coming that would change their tune if they were handed out some more DKP. I lump myself in with that. I've been unexpectedly and horrifically busy the past few weeks, and I haven't been able to log on much at all. Tempting me with DKP isn't going to change that, it would more insinuate that you think I'm not coming because I don't get anything out of it. Which is not true at all, and I have enough faith in most of my fellow guildies to say that it is not the case for the them either.

The cycle is frustrating and annoying, yes. But fixing it is going to take a lot more than just filling up with 25 people and wishing really really hard. Filling it up with pugs as is so often the answer to this isn't going to make it any easier than filling it up with random noobies in the guild. It's going to take a LOT more work at all of this than just smashing our faces against the same stuff week after week with a different makeup and group every single time. We need teamwork and consistence, and sometimes that's not going to line up perfectly for a while.

Deathrow · Post by **Deathrow** » July 11th, 2009, 12:39 pm

You say that there cant be enough people that would come if you offer DKP, yet you were worried people were going to sit out intentionally to get it.This confuses me since i am really trying to understand why we consistently are short only 3 to 4 people.

I dont see this as that much hard work, i see this more as we need to identify ideas on how to attract those 3 or 4 extra people, and try some out.

I am also highly confused about the constant thing i hear repeated that people have RL obligations and cannot make raids.
Before you misunderstand me hear me out.
If our raid times arent feasible for enough of our guild then why do we have them? Why dont we change them?
If we have a guild that is supposed to raid, yet dont have enough people to raid, why dont we get more?
If guilds that can spring up, recruit enough people to consistently progress (im not talking about taking bad or even jerk players) then why cant we?
These are the serious questions that need to be addressed

I am far from pointing fingers at anyone, i am merely asking what the discussion is so i can understand it,since i feel i deserve that much.

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » July 11th, 2009, 3:18 pm

I'm mostly talking about Tuesdays, since we seem have an abundance of people then, and not so much on Thursdays.

The problem with the raid times is that you need to pick one that appeals to the highest amount of people. And for that, you have to factor in multiple things, the most important being work schedule and time zone. I know some people out here that can get off work as late as 8:00 or 8:30, which leaves them no time to get home and be on right when the raid starts. We could change our raiding times to something else, but that could end up eliminating a particular chunk of raiders who have fallen into the Tuesday/Thursday routine, and they would either have to make RL adjustments, or could possibly not be able to make it.

The only way to truly set up an objective time is to poll every single person, and then set up a raid based around the average answer. And even then, you could miss one or several integral people who can't make that time. It's definitely just not as easy as throwing raids around to different days at random and seeing what works out best.

On top of all that, it's summer, and a lot of people are on vacation, or seeing family, or otherwise occupied in summer-like activities. Just because they can't make it for a few weeks doesn't mean they're done raiding.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » July 11th, 2009, 7:28 pm

The good part of attendance dkp is it keeps people that do show up from feeling they completely wasted their time if the raid doesn't happen. And potentially keep people from thinking 'why bother signing in, the raid won't happen anyway'. Instead it could be 'might as well sign on and pick up some extra dkp even if it doesn't happen.' That much extra dkp might mess up/not work with zero sum system though.

Deathrow · Post by **Deathrow** » July 12th, 2009, 7:11 am

So now we are having the discussion, that is the part i was interested in.

Why do we raid on weekdays if we are doomed to never have enough?
Do our late raid times stop us from getting new players?
What is being done to get new players?

I understand we have issues, but if we have issues and no ideas for solutions, and no attempt at solution all we will ever have is issues.
I have to agree that we pick a time that appeals to the highest amount of people, but lets face it if that amount is not at least 25, then nothing else matters.

The questions i am asking, and the issues i am hoping to see addressed are not something i want to cause frustration, so lets keep this as a discussion.
I think the more people that talk about this, the more ideas we may encounter.

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » July 14th, 2009, 12:22 am

There has been plenty of ideas and suggestions about solutions, but someone (usually someone extremely vocal on vent) is always there to counter it. That, or someone extremely passive-aggressive just does their own thing anyway and pugs something.

I know for a fact that at LEAST three times Andy has come up with some very thoughtful ideas on how we can resolve these issues, or what do to make a raid work when we're short, and he's just been whined down or outright ignored, which I find not only rude, but counterintuitive to the whiner's own goals.

Note when I say whiner, I'm referring to it as a plural word and not attempting to single out anyone.