Ulduar 25 DKP Policy Brainstorming Thread

Daghi · Post by **Daghi** » March 22nd, 2009, 3:41 pm

Shoot, I'm fine w/ loot council, it takes into consideration the most variables instead of looking solely at attendence and I trust all of the officers. I would be against /roll, it would cause more drama than any other system. plus too many unknowns, What if an item is going to get DE'd because the people who could use it already got an epic? Do we give priority to tanks? What about offspec gear? What about alts? Plus I have well documented horrendous luck w/ rolls.

thandrenn · Post by **thandrenn** » March 22nd, 2009, 7:53 pm

Every time the subject of loot systems comes up, there's always a movement to just do open rolls. Yeah. Most of us are pretty cool about loot. But just look back to Gruul's Lair. When FA first started doing BC 25 mans, Gruul's Lair in specific, we just had open rolls - with tank priority on tanking gear. There was drama and people'd get loot and leave. I just don't think it'll work long term.

I think we had a lot less drama with DKP. Loot Council would just lead to charges of favoritism.

draven · Post by **draven** » March 22nd, 2009, 9:29 pm

the first time we had this discussion i voted for no dkp and /roll, because i also thought we were the sort of guild where that would work. however, having seen a system in place for bc, i would prefer dkp, as i now think it's the most fair system. i would vote for a straight zero sum system without bonuses or anything else, tiered with the content we are working on. beyond that, i think that trying to account for every single possibility is more work than its worth, and in those cases we would be able to come up with a reasonable determination of what's best. i do like the idea of declaring a main spec, and maybe just having offspec be 50 or 25 percent or something. a side note: zg also had it's own built in dkp system of sorts, you couldn't roll on a set piece if you didn't have the rep for it.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » March 23rd, 2009, 12:10 am

Ya, as much as i like doing loot like we do in our 10 mans with discusions and rolls on each piece, I just don't see it working out in 25man at least for now because we don't have a really consistant roster. Even with the system we have now, which forces the spreading out of epics, I have observed people grummble in chat and in vent about frustrations in running with a system that doesn't reward those for being dedicated and at most raids.
The system we are using in naxx is the one that Wadup used in his guild that got Server Firsts before we even had enough players for a 10man. The only difference is they also charged points for off-spec gear. And in that guild there wasn't loot drama over the system becuase the guild knew it spread out epics over the whole of the raiders which was good for the group as a whole. I honestly can't say i feel that mentality exists in this guild. People want to be personally rewarded for their time, which to an extent is fine. And I know there will be people fine with rolls until that first time they lose a low droprate item to someone who's never in a raid. Then there will be complaints. Loot council would be nice in theory but like Thandrenn mentioned, it's so easy for someone to take their frustration out of losing an item by accusing the raid leaders of favortism. As far as I have researched, guilds that use either of these systems for 25man runs also have a very tight roster of raiders that care more about the end goal than their personal loot. I'm sure thats not true in all cases, but I say that to point out that unless you can say our guild is full of players who fit that critera there's sure to be complaints of not being personally rewarded for their time. DKP rewards consistancy while keeping out the chance of bias. If raiders feel they're chance of loot is completely out of their hands, the chance of them not signing on for raids goes up. DKP at least rewards players for going weither they get a drop or not. My favorite system personally is bid DKP but i don't remember people warming up to the idea before and it looks like a lot of thought was put into make our BC system better.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » March 23rd, 2009, 12:17 am

( I wish i can edit D: ) As for my point about Wadup's old guild and our Naxx system. I'm probaly wrong about the only difference being how they charged for off-spec gear too. I'm not sure how that system approached new players, but since it was a hardcore guild I'm going to guess they had a waiting period for trials instead of making it part of the system itself.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » March 23rd, 2009, 12:52 pm

Can I ask a loaded question? (okay fine that counted .. can I ask two? .. err three? damnit -- five?)        "What is the purpose of DKP?" Is it to allocate loot to the people who have put the most effort into the raids and not received his/her portion of the "goodies"?
Is it to encourage people to attend?
Is it to arbitrate fairness in a way so that a system determines the rules rather than an individual? Every system has it's loopholes and flaws, each in it's own way actual undermines the ability for us - as guild mates - to arbitrate fairness. Got a mage that attends only farm content, but hoards DKP?   Quick - patch fix so we get bonuses for new kills!
Got someone who shows up on time, but competely unprepared?   Quick - patch fix so we inspect that people have consumables/resist gear/etc...
Got a main and the only main that needs the item and it would be a benefit to the raid with a bunch of alts or off-spec rolling?   Quick - patch fix so we have % markdowns and GP Sell percentages and complex mathematics to let us all think we've turned the dial back to "fair". Now I know I'm kind of an anomaly since I received all my gear "free" in BC (well, I had to butt heads with a few people maybe) -- but I would keep coming regardless of loot. Don't get me wrong, upgrades = better DPS = more viable raid contribution, I get it. But I really like it when ANYone gets loot -- at some point, we're going to be sharding it. Does it really matter if you got your item now or 8 weeks from now? No. No it doesn't, your penis is exactly the same size now and then.

Aezelkvalae · Post by **Aezelkvalae** » March 23rd, 2009, 1:35 pm

First, I would like to say I am a big fan of DKP. It has it's flaws, but basically it's biggest advantage to me is yes, the fact that it takes loot and turns it into an impartial system. I would be against any loot council system. Man talk about asking for drama and insanity. Who seriously wants to be responsible for keeping track of the changing stat needs and available items for every equipment slot for every class AND spec. and then feel like they have to make an objective and fair decision on who needs what more when? I would also be against /roll. It sounds nice, but ultimately it puts loot into the hands of luck, and I really do think people who regularly attend raids should get rewarded first. Why do I think that? Because if you reward the people who are regularly showing up then you can count on that loot being used to help the guild and raid progress. If you let people /roll, some important rare loot drop could end up going to some guy who you won't see in the raid again for 6 weeks, while instead through DKP it would have gone to a regularly attending person who will be there again the next night to help all of his FRIENDS down bosses faster/easier and get them loot. A lot of people seemed worried about DKP hoarding. I honestly don't see it as a big issue. There were maybe 3-4 people during BC that got WAY ahead on the DKP list, and they were for the most part raid leaders. Akumabarai(Jeff) was so far out ahead of me it was ridiculous. But hey, he was pretty much the main feral druid at the time and he was there way more than me due to some RL crap I had going on. The end result was he got the first shot at feral gear before me and yeah, he pretty much deserved it for putting in the hours. Also, the other thing that will soften the blow of DKP's flaws is the badge loot system. The new Ulduar 25-man badge loot if you have looked it over is very well itemized, and people will continue to get the current 25-man badges in 10-man Ulduar content. We are already putting most T7 25-man tokens into offspec and gear needed for other slots will be available from badges if you just can't get that item you want to drop. I also think the proof is in the pudding. Now perhaps I wans't privvy to some officer chat and missed something, but I remember very very little loot drama from our BC DKP raiding days. It really worked out pretty decent.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » March 23rd, 2009, 2:11 pm

You're a huge fan of DKP, because you see it has 'acceptible' flaws -- and badge loot can soften that blow. But keep in mind as well that it's a HUGE amount of work, just ask Jeff or anyone who as served as a DKP officer, geez - try to have a conversation with the DKP Officer after raid, he/she's afk / busy for 30 minutes while we're all enchanting/gemming/doing daily quests. Nothing against your points, they are all valid - but I wanted to address your math in one point against the /roll. People who regularly attend get more rolls than the non-regulars. 5 lottery tickets rather than 1 would increases your odds significantly. But at the core of it - you DID participate in the kill that got the loot. Suppose we spent 5 weeks on bosses 1-4 ... and then Supercool the Mage gets recruited, you guys struggle for another 5 weeks on boss 5. Shouldn't he get equal chance at the loot? Not according to DKP ... DKP (IMHO) is for good ol' boys who want to keep their loot for themselves. It's inherintly flawed and easily abusable. I'd rather roll the bones myself and stay friends. This is not to say the roll is king, as always -- people will roll and then say "whoa whoa whoa -- Supercool Mage rolled? What are you wearing? Oh .. take it." Why? Because we're friends and can rely on each other doing the same for us at some point. Again, it's all gonna get sharded at some point (as soon as Scott runs out of alts I think.

)

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » March 23rd, 2009, 3:38 pm

Chuunks wroteNothing against your points, they are all valid - but I wanted to address your math in one point against the /roll. People who regularly attend get more rolls than the non-regulars. 5 lottery tickets rather than 1 would increases your odds significantly.

That's all good if we are clearing every week but we don't do that. I've been 80 for four months (has it been that long already??) and I remember clearing Naxx25 4 times (maybe more).

Chuunks wrote But at the core of it - you DID participate in the kill that got the loot. Suppose we spent 5 weeks on bosses 1-4 ... and then Supercool the Mage gets recruited, you guys struggle for another 5 weeks on boss 5. Shouldn't he get equal chance at the loot? Not according to DKP ...

No he shouldn't. He's been here 5 weeks and I've been here 10..... Jee Golly Gosh I almost see your point. I do see it actually, I just can't agree with it. I'll give you the actual example of this. When Calamity's Grasp finally drops and Ichi and I both roll on it I am going to be beyond pissed if I lose because I've been raiding for 4 months and Ichi has been there for 3 weeks. (Looking at the item list it won't happen because I've still got less items, just using it as an example.)

EDIT** Rathr agrees with Chuunks. I told her Chuunks wanted /rolls and her response was, "We're all adults."

I would almost go for it too except that I suck at rolling. There is a reason Vegi has 12 items, that punk wins all the rolls.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » March 23rd, 2009, 4:41 pm

WarmApplePie wrote

No he shouldn't. He's been here 5 weeks and I've been here 10..... Jee Golly Gosh I almost see your point. I do see it actually, I just can't agree with it. I'll give you the actual example of this. When Calamity's Grasp finally drops and Ichi and I both roll on it I am going to be beyond pissed if I lose because I've been raiding for 4 months and Ichi has been there for 3 weeks. (Looking at the item list it won't happen because I've still got less items, just using it as an example.)

Wow. That really sounds like an issue between Ichi and you, and it really sounds ... terrible. Are you saying it's better for you to get +2 DPS instead of the raid benefitting from +25 DPS? (Assuming he won the roll...) I guess it's really a matter of perspective .. and since I really don't want to be "that guy", I'm going to wash my hands of this conversation completely. I've said my points, I'm going to stop responding. /ignore before I get too emotional.

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » March 23rd, 2009, 5:43 pm

Are you saying it's better for you to get +2 DPS instead of the raid benefitting from +25 DPS? (Assuming he won the roll...)

Well you could look at it that way, or you could look at it like it'd be my +2 DPS x every damn raid vrs his +25 dps x twice a month... But it's not really that cut and dry. It's a BiS main hand weapon.. The weapon in my MH right now is supposed to be my OH, and my current OH is... ASS. I didn't take the time to Armory him, but it would probably be the same amount of upgrade for both of us.

EDIT** Took the time to armory him, he has higher ilvl weapons. But Ichi if you are reading this you should actually get the Heroic Badge OH. It's less DPS but it's the same speed as AD is and unless I missed a hotfix or something there is currently a bug where Flurry only counts the MH if your weapons are hitting at the same time (which they do if your weapons are the same speed). This will be fixed in 3.1 though.

Chuunks I agree with you, I really do. If we lived in a perfect world (or raided in a perfect guild) then I'm all for /roll or just ML it to the person for whom it is the biggest upgrade. But we have to go with the loot system that REALISTICALLY fits our guild. Did you see my waste of time spreadsheet about raid attendance? Only 1/2 of the raid is dependable. I would say that we have Naxx25 on farm but I wouldn't say we farm it.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » March 23rd, 2009, 8:29 pm

WarmApplePie wrote
Chuunks I agree with you, I really do. If we lived in a perfect world (or raided in a perfect guild) then I'm all for /roll or just ML it to the person for whom it is the biggest upgrade. But we have to go with the loot system that REALISTICALLY fits our guild. Did you see my waste of time spreadsheet about raid attendance? Only 1/2 of the raid is dependable. I would say that we have Naxx25 on farm but I wouldn't say we farm it.

I think that spreadsheet hits the issue on the head. If he had around 20 dependable people and did full clears each week, it'd probalby be more accepted to have free for all rolling. But we don't and our raids tend to take a long time cause there's a lot of afks and waiting for people cause it's more casual oriented. This leads to players wanting to feel they are getting something out of their time. . Raiding's fun but once you get things down, being in the same place night after night can get boring but having the progression of gear to look forward to is part of what drives all of us to do the same instance over and over. I have this really strong feeling that if a loot system isn't put in place for Ulduar , then that drive will be lessen for enough raiders to lower our attendance. There's people who run casue we have fun raiding, but I know theres just as many people that run for loot progression. And if they think there chances are better in a guild that promotes giving gear to consistant raiders over a system that can consistantly give loot to black holes over regulars, we might lose a skilled, consistant raider. Also I was in a guild that didn't have loot restrictions. Our Main tank didnt have enough gear for Gruul's. Progression stopped, guild fell apart.

Aezelkvalae · Post by **Aezelkvalae** » March 24th, 2009, 8:33 am

Chuunks wrote DKP (IMHO) is for good ol' boys who want to keep their loot for themselves. It's inherintly flawed and easily abusable. I'd rather roll the bones myself and stay friends.

I see it the exact opposite. I see /roll as being for the selfish people who want to be able to just show up whenever they feel like it and have an equal shot at loot when they weren't there helping their friends raid the rest of the time. Beyond having an impartial looting standard DKP is also about just getting people to show up. We are casual, but we are still a raiding guild, and if you don't want to be coming to raids on a regular basis then you really shouldn't expect loot.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » March 24th, 2009, 2:27 pm

As much as I'm trying to stay out of it, somehow I got flagged to getting emailed every single response to this thread

I've spoken my peace, I haven't inspected anyone or formed any opinion as to who I think is more or less deserving of loot. My reactions are soley based on what I see as people with a certain feeling of entitlement. But one additional though occured to me so I figured I'd follow up Andrews post .... Take this as an example. Suppose Supercool the Mage can make 1/3 of the raid times ... those 2 extra raids bolster your DKP and all the sudden we have a situation where he would never get loot. This is not 1 to 1 -- there are 25 other people who are getting DKP on the off nights and every single one of them stepping in front of Supercool because of it. Supercool mage says f it -- I'm gonna find a guild with a fair distribution system. New guild has Supersexy the rogue, they marry - and have two children; Superbonkee and Superbangee. Superbonkee and Superbangee sneak into FA in the middle of the night, drain the guild bank and write profane graffitti over everything. Trust me, I understand your point of view. I just think it's selfish and self-serving. Let me tell you this, we'll see who uses it to their advantage. There's an easy way to beat me in a roll for (almost) anything ... simply say "omg omg! That item I want so bad!" Because I'm the type of guy who is there for the fun of it, I don't want the loot so bad as to deprive you of something that would make you cream your jeans -- because in reality, we're talking about bytes of information on a computer file in a game -- it's just different blipping numbers on a different flipping item. Care about that s..tuff when you are a tank.

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » March 24th, 2009, 4:28 pm

Don't stay out of it,the whole point is to discuss this stuff. I'll throw you my vote to try it, but I deffinatly think we should have that new DKP system they were talking about running in the background as a fall back plan. Look at the item spreadsheet, there are 56 people on that list. Do you really want loot split up between that many people? Like I said, I'm willing to try it to for the benefit of speeding up the raid but I don't see how this can work out in a positive manner for us. I guess we should hear from an officer if they are even considering different looting options. This started out as a DKP policy brainstorming thread... I'm going to spend the next 1/2 hour before I leave work updating my pointless spreadsheet about raid attendance and then compare it to the loot count spreadsheet. I see a lot of regulars on that loot list that have gotten 1/2 the items of the "every now and then" guys.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » March 24th, 2009, 7:12 pm

The purpose of DKP is raid progression. The goal is to reduce the randomness of loot distribution. Loot dropped by a boss is often random and then a /roll is random. We can't do anything about the former, but we can add rules about who gets what dropped. Instead of being partially random, the loot can be distributed to raid members who have main specs that: (have seen the most previous boss kills - loot distributed to them), which allows more predictability between time spent raiding and loot received. So how does more equality between time spent raiding and loot received help raid progression? The answer isn't in balancing out stats like DPS by player A being closer to player B, or anything related to numbers. The answer is purely emotional. The person who raids Ulduar 2 times a week for 2 months has invested time and emotional capital and they expect something for their efforts, or at least a comparative priority for their efforts. Even though it is an ItemID in a database, represented by a purple icon, it's partially the carrot on the stick. It can be extremely frustrating for dedicated raiders to constantly lose rolls on a desired item, and it can cause a lot of drama to the raiders and also very importantly, the raid leader. Putting these DKP rules in place allows the focus to be removed to a large extent from loot, and back to where it needs to be, guild raid progression.

Inori · Post by **Inori** » March 24th, 2009, 11:53 pm

I encourage everyone in the guild to provide their input on this topic. The discussions have been good and is exactly the sort of feedback and brainstorming I was hoping for. Being a big fan of compromise (and having my cake and eating it too), I want to expand on the idea of trying out both systems. According to my achievement history, we cleared spider wing on 12/6/2008 (a pretty good approximation for when we started Naxxramas 25). That means that we've been running 25 man raids for about 4 months now. I'm thinking that we try main spec /roll for two months, then switch to DKP. A few notes. 1) The DKP system will be running in the background the entire time.
2) Main spec /rolls will cost full item DKP.
3) Off spec /rolls will cost the minimum 10 DKP. Since everyone will have advance notice of the system transitioning to DKP, everyone is encouraged to 'self-regulate' their /rolls. I'll make a separate post about how to do a gear plan. If you end up going into the transition with -1000 DKP, it probably means that 4) You did not plan gear out correctly (e.g., /rolled on an item, then /rolled on an equivalent item without passing it to other raiders, and 'wasted' the old item).
5) You did not raid frequently, yet have extremely good luck on /rolls and got a lot of gear. If things are going well with /roll, we can choose to stick with it and not transition. We'll probably keep the DKP running in the background so that people will have a metric for how they're doing on loot and attendance (e.g., if I'm at -500 DKP, I'll pass on a lot of healing items for a while until an upgrade I will use is about to go offspec -- the sign that the other healers have geared to an equivalent level as myself and I can resume upgrading). Keep the discussion going; it raises awareness, helps people understand other views, and may spawn new ideas. -HP

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » March 25th, 2009, 12:32 am

WarmApplePie wrote
There is a reason Vegi has 12 items, that punk wins all the rolls.

Negative sir. That reason is Vegi came as Holy spec right after I finished getting everything in 25 man, which swoops me into my only thought on the whole thing. Being the only Holy paladin, all plate spell power gear is a free for all. Not even considering the long-term ramifications, I took everything that was an upgrade. But now, we're at the end of the rope, where all I need are tier pieces, and I have so many freaking points tallied up from having no competition that I will not get them before we're done with the place. There are two sides to this one. First, yes, I am getting geared, and I'm not being "omg qq no loot 4 me!!1". But second, should I think ahead and pass on upgrades on for myself just because 1) no one else needs them, and 2) there's a trinket/ring/shield/weapon/tier piece I want that could possibly drop sometime in the future? I don't actually know what to do. I'm totally fine with the whole "helping the whole" mentality. I don't have a preference between DKP or whatever system because I probably have the least valid opinion out of everyone. But, considering it's based on some form of DKP system, the same sort of situation will happen again. I'll be negative 9 jillion DKP because I had no competition, so I'll be the last to get any kind of new weapons or sharable slot item. I'm not using this as a forum to whine, just an example of a situation that can be worked on and fit into any kind of system we eventually decide on. I know more than a few people who would not be ok with a similar situation happening to them. Our 10mans have always ran with group loot. I like it. We're all friends, we're all mature, and we can talk things out. There's never been a single argument or a single hurt feeling. The problem is, when you nearly triple that size of the group, and not everyone is as close, there's going to be issues, which I think everyone realizes. Sadly, that's why a system is needed in the first place. I can't say any of this without sounding like an epic loot whore, but I promise I'm not.

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » March 25th, 2009, 10:25 am

Ofie wrote WarmApplePie wrote
There is a reason Vegi has 12 items, that punk wins all the rolls. Negative sir. That reason is Vegi came as Holy spec...

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Kaittlynn · Post by **Kaittlynn** » March 25th, 2009, 12:42 pm

/agree This makes me think about when I do win a roll in my house (and for the most part has since Kara, unless it is something that I really, really want~!!!). If I win a roll, I tell John not to give it to me yet, I think I do this in the other raids too, but don't rememebr off hand if I do. Even though I won the roll, I check to see what other's in my class (or others that could use the item) are wearing. If it is a bigger upgrade for them, and they have been raiding about the same amount as me and they are AWESOME then I often pass to them. It is kinda one of those things where I roll just to see if I can get a high number... I think that no matter what system we have in place will work if we come together as a raid for the same reasons. We come to raid to progress with *Friends*. It should not matter who has what loots, who got more last time and why the crap is Ofie allowed to go -9million DKP! It should be about coming together with everyone's best interest in mind. I wish the raid could have seen me and Blastine "Fight" over cloth drops in 10 man Naxx...\ Handsomo: Ok, Cloth DPS Roll.... Blastine: *Crickets Chirping* Kaittlynn: *Wind Whistling By* Handsomo: No one wants it? Kaittlynn: Hang /emote looks at Blastines gear... Blastine: You can have it, Kaitt it's good for you Kaittlynn: No you take it, I can get it next time... Believe it or not, this dialogue went back and forth until we were both sure that we were being fair to each other. Even with items that are seen a lot less...It isn't that big of a deal. Come to raid, Come to have fun, Come to be part of a team--Come to be part of Forged Alliance...Last I checked, the founders didn't put it together for loot whores...quite the opposite, they put it together for common friends to be able to raid the bigger dungeons and have fun! (I think, please correct me founders, if there were different reasons, I think by now several new people don't know FA's story)... Main point. Loot system shouldn't matter as much as everyone understanding it, and everyone coming to be part of the FA team...