Forged Alliance

K, so I guess let me know if I am completely off base, but I have been noticing something that has been gradually getting worse and worse for the last few weeks.  There are a lot of people in the guild talking crap about other people, i.e. complaining about raids failing, saying that people suck, and just generally bad feelings on guild chat.  I personally don't like it and it doesn't help me have fun playing WoW, which is the reason I wanted to be in a guild in the first place.  At this point, I feel like I would have more fun if I wasn't in a guild at all because I wouldn't have to read everyone's complaining all the time.  I joined this guild because I have real life friends here as well as my husband, and it has been really fun.  I don't like it when people are sarcastic on raid chat, because typing can be COMPLETELY misinterpreted.  I don't usually say stuff; it takes people ragging on me a lot to make me mad, but it has gotten to that point.  Sorry if anyone disagrees with me, I'm not wanting to point fingers or make anyone mad, I just hope that everyone can remember why we are in a guild.  This website boasts that we are a "Guild Family", but I feel more like it is my "Guild In-Laws that I only want to visit on Christmas, and even then they piss me off".  Thanks for reading, and I hope everyone is having fun playing, and not taking this GAME too seriously.  Karen

i wouldn't say you're off base, i would probably have to agree.  there is a lot of asshattery that goes on at times, and that combined with the fact that things are in general not all that challenging in wotlk makes the game less fun imho.  i blame the cookies.

WHY WOULD YOU BLAME THE COOKIES And hey, hi, play nice guys, bye. Sincerely, Sick, work-a-holic Riggins who you won't see until at least April.

I agree with you Kdub. There has been times in the past when gchat would center around people teasing and/or being mean to each other, but it always went back to normal after a few hours. Its tough to say what the cause is though.

Option #1 = I think people are just generally gloomier right now. Bad weather, bad economy, and little overall success in the game. Only one group is really progressing right now. If raiding isnt your thing then you are still probably getting pissed at all the OP Dk's and Rets that are out world ganking. Hopefully when better weather comes to those areas that need it, and when tax season is behind us, peoples attitudes will brighten.

Option #2 = We've added too many immature asshats to the roster and it's time to swing freely with our /gkick bat and tighten up our application standards.

I'm leaning towards #2 myself.

Riggins wrote WHY WOULD YOU BLAME THE COOKIES And hey, hi, play nice guys, bye. Sincerely, Sick, work-a-holic Riggins who you won't see until at least April.

  Wow, why don't you go cancel your account more jerk?

WarmApplePie wrote

Option #2 = We've added too many immature asshats to the roster and it's time to swing freely with our /gkick bat and tighten up our application standards.

I'm leaning towards #2 myself.

Lol, very nicely put  I once saw a movie (Semi-Pro), and their saying they tried to live up to was "Everybody Love Everybody". Ya easier said then done, but I love that movie!

LOL - how does this happen with Paul and Dustin separated?  Or perhaps that's the problem, they would attack each other so brutally that no one would step into the arena ... Seriously, though (and I'd say this in the officer forum if I wasn't demoted here mere moments after my own gquit) it is merely a matter of coming down appropriately on the right people at the right time.  I'm not talking about creating an environment where people can't speak their own minds ...  But there is a tendency of people to stretch the bounds of good taste and humor, I know this well chatting with Scott nightly on vent.     If people don't know the acceptible limits, they will continue to push against them. I understand, as well, the an uncomfortable position to be in to rail on someone's language -- I think history has shown that it can easily devolve into something less constructive.   The burden of responsibility really is on the guild leaders to handle this ... Perhaps it's also time to re-evaluate my old guild application form -- it seems very focused on raiding (BC) which was what we doing trying to evole our "Guild Family".  

Recently people have talked to me about how raids aren't as fun as they were in BC.  Its cool to get new stuff done, but the general consensus is that it's not really a "good time" like it was.  The "family" feeling is just about totally gone.  People seem on edge all the time and it wasn't that way before.  What can we do?

I'd like to clarify where the problem lies. Is it primarily 25 man content, 10 man content, or 5 man content?

For 25 man content, I'm hoping that this patch resolves the lag issues. Losing two nights to frustrating lag will put a lot of people on edge.

For 10 man content, I'd like to know how the guild handled Karazhan back when it was hard mode (I wasn't around for that)? Are we too used to cruising through easy mode Karazhan?

For 5 man content, is it specific instances? I know that some of the encounters are a bit sensitive to group composition and have very little margin on heroic in certain scenarios (the first boss in heroic AN always makes me shudder, dang untankable backstabbing spiders).

-HP

I don't think the problem is content.  I personally really like the new content even though I think the 5 mans were pretty easy compared to BC heroics.  I can't really say anything about anyone else's 10 mans, but mine is the highlight of my wow week lol. I think Karen did a decent job of summing up some of the problems.  AI personally can't pinpoint the problem, but can say that a lot of people have been talking about it.  Maybe ill have to take notes the next time people decide to confide their dirty little secrets with me hehe.  (Screamshot is really a 64 year old woman that used to be a man due to a horrible Vacuum cleaner incident in the late 70's that left him genderless until a botched genitle reattachement operation in the 80's left "it" more woman than man) Kara back in the day was pretty tough.  I remember when a good week was getting Shade down and doing Chess trash to get free loots.  Only had 1 group running for a long time, but then again I don't really think we had enough people to start another group.  Or maybe we did and people just didn't get off their butts and do it for a long time...  That seems right.     

Inori wroteI'd like to clarify where the problem lies. Is it primarily 25 man content, 10 man content, or 5 man content?For 25 man content, I'm hoping that this patch resolves the lag issues. Losing two nights to frustrating lag will put a lot of people on edge.For 10 man content, I'd like to know how the guild handled Karazhan back when it was hard mode (I wasn't around for that)? Are we too used to cruising through easy mode Karazhan?For 5 man content, is it specific instances? I know that some of the encounters are a bit sensitive to group composition and have very little margin on heroic in certain scenarios (the first boss in heroic AN always makes me shudder, dang untankable backstabbing spiders).-HP

K here is my take on this subject. It is the 25 mans. I think in the 10's we are able to choose certain people that work well with your personality so that it doesnt happen as much. But i know the last naxx 25 man i was on we struggled with a few bosses. This should be deemed natural as we claim to be a casual raiding guild and as such consistant raiders have never been our strong suit. But anyways people were obviously frustrated and spamming things such as "fail" and other extremely degrading remarks on raid chat. And as far as the problem being new people...i dont think that is all the problem, i think even some of the ancient FA's have gotten into a habit of spamming things over raid that are not constructive. I know i am not perfect and if i am ever out of line i hope an officer would tell me. But not over raid chat. I know i screwed up the last time i was in OS 25 cuz i ran out of the instance to save a few gold on repairs when i was the last sruvivor. I really like how benvolo dealt with it though. He politely wispered me not to do that cuz otherwise i have heroism exhaustion and as such on the next attempt i would not get the buff. He wasnt degrading or even sounding upset. but it was importannt to address the stuation and i appreciated the way he dealt with it. It was between me and him and as such i felt comfortable in continuing. Being called out in raid chat doesnt make me want to continue and i find myslef finding excuses of why i have to leave early(not that i use them...but it is the truth).

Anyways i hate that this has to be a topic of discussion but we need to be positive in our critisism and know our places. And in my opinion no one has the responsibility to call someone out on raid and make them feel embarrassed and not want to continue. With a positive attitude we will get more done cuz we wont be afraid to make a mistake. I know when i messed up...i dont need people to make me feel like trash about it too. And if it is a problem than an officer needs to address it in manner suitable for the situation.

Another example of addressing an issue....When we were raiding SSC and TK i used to have huge internet issues and i would DC in boss fights a lot. NOONE ever called me out on raid. But i did get a few messages from concerned officers (chunnks and fargol especially) addressing the issue. And as such i came to the conclusion i needed to stop raiding until i could get new internet. It sucked but it was what was best. I was upset about the situation but not with the way it was handled. Chunnks and Fargol never told me i couldnt raid...but even tried to help me figure out what the issue might be. anyways the point with this is it was never done on raid chat.

Raid chat is to communicate strategy not to call out people that are trying their best.

K enough of my soap box...i am done with this.

I hope this helps and i hope i didnt come off wrong or step outside of my role. If i did i am sorry.

The Veg

Vegimity wrote Inori wroteI'd like to clarify where the problem lies. Is it primarily 25 man content, 10 man content, or 5 man content?For 25 man content, I'm hoping that this patch resolves the lag issues. Losing two nights to frustrating lag will put a lot of people on edge.For 10 man content, I'd like to know how the guild handled Karazhan back when it was hard mode (I wasn't around for that)? Are we too used to cruising through easy mode Karazhan?For 5 man content, is it specific instances? I know that some of the encounters are a bit sensitive to group composition and have very little margin on heroic in certain scenarios (the first boss in heroic AN always makes me shudder, dang untankable backstabbing spiders).-HPK here is my take on this subject. It is the 25 mans. I think in the 10's we are able to choose certain people that work well with your personality so that it doesnt happen as much. But i know the last naxx 25 man i was on we struggled with a few bosses. This should be deemed natural as we claim to be a casual raiding guild and as such consistant raiders have never been our strong suit. But anyways people were obviously frustrated and spamming things such as "fail" and other extremely degrading remarks on raid chat.

Ofie has a mod that says 'so and so has failed on such and such' as a way to see whats killing people. It is tounge in cheek and has been said as much. It's not about degrading peoples, the terminology is sillyness that was programmed into the mod. And we've all been called out by the mod, its personally helped me see what's killed me and so i was able to realize what i did wrong. It's spammy cuase it reads of combat log. It's not people specifically wasting their raid chat time calling you out.

Tsuni wroteOfie has a mod that says 'so and so has failed on such and such' as a way to see whats killing people. It is tounge in cheek and has been said as much. It's not about degrading peoples, the terminology is sillyness that was programmed into the mod. And we've all been called out by the mod, its personally helped me see what's killed me and so i was able to realize what i did wrong. It's spammy cuase it reads of combat log. It's not people specifically wasting their raid chat time calling you out.

Honestly, I don't find that mod useful at all - esp on something like heigan when it just turns into spam. To be frank, until a few days ago, I've had ofie on /ignore since the first time I raided with him while he was running that mod. :-p It pollutes the chat window to the point that if anyone w/o a mic needed to say something, no one would see it.

First off, thank you all for bringing this up in a reasonable manner instead of /gquitting or something like that.  It says a lot about our guild that we can have coherent discussions about issues that are on peoples' minds.  Now to the point, in the last week (2 weeks maybe?) or so, our most negative, outspoken guild member left.  People who are negative and doing the things described in this thread only serve to drag other people down with them, so I think we will see a marked improvement in things as we go forward.   I had to address a similar issue in BC, when I wrote up some guidelines and policies for the guild after several members expressed concern about negative comments and poor word choices in public forums (gchat, or raid chat).  I will do the same thing again if we do not see an improvement in the next couple weeks.  In the meantime, I think its the place of the guild leadership to politely whisper people are being negative in raid chat or guild chat and simply remind them that we foster a fun, family environment in this guild, and that means no bashing people or "calling people out" in guild or raid chat.    Sarcasm is probably still ok, as long as it is within reason and people toss a smiley on the end or a "j/k".  But don't be that guy who always says "Epic Fail j/k" after anyone says anything in gchat.    Anyone who feels like they still are getting bad vibes from specific individuals, please feel free to contact me (or any organizer) via in game chat or mail.  We will discuss what is appropriate and deal with any specific issues members have confidentially.  Our goal is to facilitate our "family" feeling and help everyone have fun together.    -Hanh

Fargol wrote I've had ofie on /ignore since the first time I raided with him while he was running that mod. :-p It pollutes the chat window to the point that if anyone w/o a mic needed to say something, no one would see it.

HA! I'm not the only one that /ignores guildies!

I try to keep quiet during raids.  Nothing wrong with socializing or having fun, but when we're still struggling with new content, I think too much chatter creates problems with focus. Wadup is doing a great job leading the charge, embracing the casual members of our guild, and pushing us through new content at a reasonable pace. I just wish that sometimes people would be quiet and listen when they need to.  There's no reason Wadup should have to say the same thing over and over because the same people die over and over.  While it is only a game and we're all trying to have fun, everyone should remember that there are 24 other people devoting their time to this as well, and that we should all be considerate of how we use each other's time. And those of us who are dealing with new people, or who are new people themselves, should take xtra care with what they say, not yet knowing how others will respond.

Hanh wrote Now to the point, in the last week (2 weeks maybe?) or so, our most negative, outspoken guild member left.  People who are negative and doing the things described in this thread only serve to drag other people down with them, so I think we will see a marked improvement in things as we go forward.

Thank goodness for that.  I thought for a long time that I was the only one that had issues with that person...silly me.  I am really glad that I did post something, because I didn't want to sound like the little girl that gets hurt feelings all the time.  Thank you to everyone for posting, I'm glad that we can talk like grownups and have a real conversation.  I know that I am trying as hard as I can to be awesome, and some /love every once in a while makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy.  Thank you for sticking with me and letting me be a part of this guild, even though I don't Ice Block as much as I should...

Fargol wrote
 Tsuni wrote
Ofie has a mod that says 'so and so has failed on such and such' as a way to see whats killing people. It is tounge in cheek and has been said as much. It's not about degrading peoples, the terminology is sillyness that was programmed into the mod. And we've all been called out by the mod, its personally helped me see what's killed me and so i was able to realize what i did wrong. It's spammy cuase it reads of combat log. It's not people specifically wasting their raid chat time calling you out.

Honestly, I don't find that mod useful at all - esp on something like heigan when it just turns into spam. To be frank, until a few days ago, I've had ofie on /ignore since the first time I raided with him while he was running that mod. :-p It pollutes the chat window to the point that if anyone w/o a mic needed to say something, no one would see it.

  lulz   But yeah, I know tons of people think I'm a total jerk, but I'm really not...ask any of my friends. I'm just extremely sarcastic, and that's hard to convey across the interwebs. I try and keep it in check most of the time, and usually I only jest with people who know me and know how sarcastic I really am.   I know our 10 man is what I look forward to every week. We're all very close, we joke around, we have laughs during the boss encounters, everything is jovial and light. Even when we're screwing up for some odd reason or just having an off-night, it's fun and by the end everyone's had a good time. 25 man is slightly more difficult to work with, since a lot of the people that come don't talk on vent, barely talk in chat, and sometimes aren't even on vent. So they can't hear the context of what's being said in raid, and everyone knows stuff usually doesn't sound as intended when typed. If anyone thinks that when someone types "fail" they're actually calling them out on the failures of their life, that's some insecurity that can't be dealt with through the game. But if you think that a specific person is repeatedly picking on you, that's something different.

Hanh wroteFirst off, thank you all for bringing this up in a reasonable manner instead of /gquitting or something like that.  It says a lot about our guild that we can have coherent discussions about issues that are on peoples' minds.  Now to the point, in the last week (2 weeks maybe?) or so, our most negative, outspoken guild member left.  People who are negative and doing the things described in this thread only serve to drag other people down with them, so I think we will see a marked improvement in things as we go forward.   I had to address a similar issue in BC, when I wrote up some guidelines and policies for the guild after several members expressed concern about negative comments and poor word choices in public forums (gchat, or raid chat).  I will do the same thing again if we do not see an improvement in the next couple weeks.  In the meantime, I think its the place of the guild leadership to politely whisper people are being negative in raid chat or guild chat and simply remind them that we foster a fun, family environment in this guild, and that means no bashing people or "calling people out" in guild or raid chat.    Sarcasm is probably still ok, as long as it is within reason and people toss a smiley on the end or a "j/k".  But don't be that guy who always says "Epic Fail j/k" after anyone says anything in gchat.    Anyone who feels like they still are getting bad vibes from specific individuals, please feel free to contact me (or any organizer) via in game chat or mail.  We will discuss what is appropriate and deal with any specific issues members have confidentially.  Our goal is to facilitate our "family" feeling and help everyone have fun together.    -Hanh

I agree that a big problem has left the guild and i thank the officers for their decision to make a hard call. it is never easy to make that decision. And i dont want people to think that we cant fun with eachother but if you are making sarcastic remarks to people you better know the person and have that kind of relationship with them. For example, i know John and Marina and i can joke with them accordingly without taking them seriously. Haha it is funny...but i know them so i know what they are like. It is innappropriate to do it to someone who you occasionally see in a raid (imo).

And for the record i have anyone that has ever used that mod that calls people out on /ignore aswell...

Anyway i am confident that things will get better and thanks for the way that this has been handled. I appreciate being in a guild that people are willing to bend to make things good for all people. Thanks everyone for your input.

And finally i want to thank Wadup for the leadership in progression. I knwo leading a casual raiding guild can be frustrating and he really does do the best he can and i dont think this issue is a reflection of his leadership. I think it is just a reality check and a time to reflect on the way i think we all want things to be. So thanks Wadup!

The Veg

Ofie wrote Fargol wrote
 Tsuni wrote
Ofie has a mod that says 'so and so has failed on such and such' as a way to see whats killing people. It is tounge in cheek and has been said as much. It's not about degrading peoples, the terminology is sillyness that was programmed into the mod. And we've all been called out by the mod, its personally helped me see what's killed me and so i was able to realize what i did wrong. It's spammy cuase it reads of combat log. It's not people specifically wasting their raid chat time calling you out. Honestly, I don't find that mod useful at all - esp on something like heigan when it just turns into spam. To be frank, until a few days ago, I've had ofie on /ignore since the first time I raided with him while he was running that mod. :-p It pollutes the chat window to the point that if anyone w/o a mic needed to say something, no one would see it.   lulz   But yeah, I know tons of people think I'm a total jerk, but I'm really not...ask any of my friends. I'm just extremely sarcastic, and that's hard to convey across the interwebs. I try and keep it in check most of the time, and usually I only jest with people who know me and know how sarcastic I really am.   I know our 10 man is what I look forward to every week. We're all very close, we joke around, we have laughs during the boss encounters, everything is jovial and light. Even when we're screwing up for some odd reason or just having an off-night, it's fun and by the end everyone's had a good time. 25 man is slightly more difficult to work with, since a lot of the people that come don't talk on vent, barely talk in chat, and sometimes aren't even on vent. So they can't hear the context of what's being said in raid, and everyone knows stuff usually doesn't sound as intended when typed. If anyone thinks that when someone types "fail" they're actually calling them out on the failures of their life, that's some insecurity that can't be dealt with through the game. But if you think that a specific person is repeatedly picking on you, that's something different.

It has nothing to do with insecurities! it is that i know that i messed up and i dont need someone else pointing it oout to the world. I dont mind an officer psting me to talk about my mistake cuz they are usually obvious anyway. And once again...if it is to someone that you knwo personally that is different that to someone who you dont know. And here comes the fact that the people doing it are not the ones in the position to be doing it. This game is supposed to be fun and people arent having fun cuz others are getting laughs at others expense. You might think it is funny. and it might be okay in your 10 man...but in a 25 man...i am sorry there is no room for that. IMO everyone needs to re-examine your role and stick with it. If we did i think the progress would be a lot better. And also imo there is nothing wrong with not talking on vent. I dont talk a lot cuz it gets jumbled easily in 25 man and i am trying to perfrom my role. I know i am not a leader in the raids so i listen and try my best to follow directions. That is my role and until it changes i prob wont talk a lot. Back when WOTLK first came out and i was orgnizing raids a few times a week with Crusher i did talk more. But that was my role in that raid.

Anyway i think you catch my drift so the end.

The Veg