Forged Alliance

In a raid, if 10 people react randomly, what is the outcome? It's f'in random. The more people in your raid that react randomly, the more and more it feels like your boss kills/wipes are a matter of luck.

So why do some raid groups execute so well week in and week out? Is it because they're 'hardcore'? If you answered yes, then you're one of the people acting randomly in the paragraph above. There are various definitions of casual vs. hardcore raiding -- it doesn't matter. Even if the raid roster for a group is 20 people because each person shows up half the time (this is one definition of casual I've seen). Even if the raid group only raids two nights a week for 3 hours instead of five nights a week for 4 hours (this is another definition of casual I've seen). As long as the ten people that do show up are playing intelligently, the raid will execute well. Raiding casual *does not equal* raiding stupid.

For a given boss fight, you can go online and read a boss strategy. The boss strategy may tell you how many tanks and healers to bring, how to position the raid, and some things to watch out for. The video may show you what's going on from a certain player's point of view. Does the strategy tell you the exact sequence of buttons to press? No. This is the distinction between a 'raid strategy' and 'personal strategy'.

In sports and even in business, you've heard the phrase, "successful people visualize success". In a raid, why do some raiders always seem to make the right decisions yet others seem to randomly mess it up? That's because the good raiders can visualize what to do ahead of time. In a boss fight, events happen that you must react to. When the event occurs, you act -- even if that action is to stand still and do nothing. Let's go over an example from Shannox.

I'm a ranged DPS that is attacking Rageface (the untankable dog that is killed first). A trap is thrown at me. Let's visualize what can happen.
1) I'm not paying attention. The trap goes off and it's an immolation trap. The three raid healers now have to heal four targets instead of three.
2) I'm not paying attention. The trap goes off and it's a freezing trap. DPS now has to stop working on Rageface to break me out.
3) I'm paying attention and I move out before the trap goes off.

Are those the only three answers? No. There are tiers to visualization. Just because you avoid the most catastrophic outcomes 1 and 2 does not make you a good raider. Take the visualization to the next tier.

4) I'm paying attention and notice that it's an immolation trap. I move out of the trap and stand next to it. The next time Rageface jumps at me, he triggers the immolation trap and takes a bunch of fire damage plus increased damage taken by 40%. Wow, I'm f'in pro.
5) I'm paying attention and notice that it's a freezing trap. I move out of the trap and keep moving further away. The next time Rageface jumps at me, he isn't accidentally frozen and I don't waste time having to break him out of a block of ice. Wow, I'm f'in pro.

Do you know what drives me nuts on sloppy Shannox kills? I'm a healer, yet I can visualize what I think other players should be doing. During phase 1 when the three healers have to actually worry about random damage due to Rageface, there are more than three people taking damage. Why? Because the raid isn't > 50 yards from where the spear is landing. I *visualize* having the raid packed near the boss while killing Rageface. I *visualize* only three people taking damage -- the Shannox tank, the Riplimb tank, and the current target of Rageface. I *visualize* that when the spear is thrown, only two people are hit by AoE pulse instead of eight people. When the Shannox tank drags the boss, I *visualize* the tank taking a predictable path. Why the hell is it random every time we pull the boss? The tank doesn't have to worry about threat -- all of the DPS is on Rageface. The tank doesn't have to worry about traps behind him -- no one is standing behind him for a trap to be thrown at (and if someone were standing behind him, the tank can *visualize* that no one should be there and yell at them to never do that again). The tank can solely focus on the position of the boss, the presence of traps beneath his feet, the position of the Riplimb tank, *and* the position of the closest freezing trap to the Riplimb tank -- with those four pieces of information, the tank can *visualize* the ideal movement vector so that the instant he has to move (due to a trap thrown at him or shedding the DoT), he moves out in the best possible direction instead of an f'in random direction.

At higher tiers of visualization, you actually end up considering action *before* an event occurs -- that way, when/if an event does occur, you have a *better selection* of actions that you can take. One example is that on Majordomo, healers/ranged on the ring should move ahead of time to hug a fire circle adjacent to them. That way, the fire circles overlap 50% so that for a given flame leap, you can remove the visualization scenario where you are pinned between two poorly placed fire circles -- your action ahead of time gives you better choices later on.

Unless a fight is highly scripted (like Baleroc), your raid leader will have a raid strategy that is a general framework. Even though a boss may use abilities randomly at random targets, if all ten players *visualize* their actions and react in a *deliberate* manner instead of a random one, you'll find that player positioning and behavior will converge -- you end up with a clean kill week after week. How do you get all ten players to this level of skill? By wiping a lot. Even if a boss dies, if each of the ten players reflects on the decisions they made during the fight, they can improve week after week. Always being in the optimal position so that you never have to move to DPS is not an accident -- it is the result of reflecting on two wipes where I was pissed off at always being out of range and having to run around. Do you know that on Shannox, I always heal while standing in the melee pile? When the tank moves the boss, I know where all the traps are -- they're either underneath the tank or in a semicircle behind the boss where the DPS was standing. Whenever a melee DPS walks over an immolation trap thrown at the tank, I /facepalm -- if I can heal in melee range and still not trigger traps, why can't people DPS and not trigger them? The good players know that when following the boss, follow behind the outsides of his legs because any trap thrown at the tank will be passing between them. This of course requires that the tank drag the boss backwards (what one would assume is the natural reaction) instead of randomly dragging the boss around. Notice how even though the trap target is random, the actions of the ten raid members is deliberate and converges into a clean boss kill. As soon as the tank starts acting randomly, the other raid members are now more prone to random action and the result are sloppy boss kills chalked up to luck.

So...how do you audit your personal strategy for a boss fight? Do the following exercise. First, list off the things you will do during the boss fight that are not random -- imagine that none of the boss' random target abilities target you. You'll find that this is a simple script. Suppose I'm a shadow priest on Majordomo. My script is to stack on the pull and use my full DPS rotation on the boss. Right before the sixth cleave, I will hit dispersion. As the sixth cleave hits, I will move out to my designated spot on the circle. I'll do my full DPS rotation on the boss and spike the cats. On the fifth leap, I will run in and cast SW:Death and renew my DPlague, and so forth. It's a simple script.

This is why it really pisses me off when people come to a raid completely unprepared. I don't care if you're the best pre-potting DPS in the world, FFS take 5 minutes to watch a L2Raid video before the fight. Even if the video is 15 minutes long, you can just skip the parts that don't pertain to your role in the fight. Here's a football analogy. Your raid leader (coach Belichick) needs to know the whole strategy. He has an idea of what all the players are doing -- tanks, healers, ranged DPS, melee DPS. If you're just a wide receiver, just have a 'clue' what your route is -- if you're a melee DPS, know what the melee DPS simple script for the boss fight is. You don't need to memorize what the tanks and healers are doing, just know your own role. That way, when coach Belichick decides to tweak the play, you're on the same page instead of having to say you didn't bother to open the playbook -- if your own time is so precious that you can't be bothered to prepare, then what about the time of the other nine people on the team that have to wait while you're told what to do. Furthermore, when you actually pull the boss, you have an idea what the non-random abilities are -- if you have no idea what the boss does, then every ability looks random to you.

Second, start going down the list of random things that can happen in the fight. For each random thing that can happen to you, visualize and state your reaction -- if Majordomo does a flame leap at me, I'm going to move out of it. Next, be sure to clarify the details of your reaction -- is any movement okay, or are there better choices? Are there any worse choices? In this case, I would say, "I'd strafe away from any close existing fire circle so that I don't get pinned later on unless it was the fourth leap. If it was the fourth leap, either side doesn't matter because on the fifth leap, I would be running inward into the melee pile".

Lastly, you could even ask how you would optimize your action -- "In order to maintain my DPS, I would cast SW:Death and refresh DPlague while I was moving".

I don't expect people to come up with their entire personal strategy for a boss ahead of time. As long as you learn from each pull -- wipe or kill, you will develop your own personal strategy as you go. The random events don't even have to occur to you -- whenever I see a ranged DPS mess something up, I ask myself, "Can that happen to me? If so, what would I do differently?".

If you're a prima donna raider that is so good at raiding that you are already executing your own role in the boss fight perfectly, then good for you. You can just say TL;DR and decide that it's okay for the raid to struggle since it's 'casual'.

-HP

What spurned this?

In my mind, there is a lack of improvement in execution from week to week of doing the same content. Let me frame the concept of personal strategy differently.

When someone says, "I have developed muscle memory for what to do on this boss", what are they really saying? Muscle memory is subconscious visualization of the personal strategy you have developed for a boss fight. Let me give you a fictitious example.

I'm the tank on Shannox. It is my habit to strafe to the left when I need to drag Shannox away to buy time for my DoT to fall off. I don't know why I always strafe to left, but I just do -- that's the way my gut tells me to go whenever I do this fight.

Do you know what that type of *deliberate* non-random behavior does? Consider this. The two healers assigned to the Shannox tank now start to favor offsetting their position to the right of the boss. Why? It just feels better to do it that way -- I don't know why I always set up behind the back right leg of the boss.

Finally, let's bring this example full circle. We bring in a new tank for Shannox. He has to shed his DoT, but he strafes to his right when he drags Shannox. Your healers suddenly find themselves out of range because the tank moved in a different direction than they're used to. The healers notice this and they then start running to their left and perhaps toss an instant pain suppression on the tank to make up for only being able to do instant heals while they move. Do you know what the healers say to the new tank? "Whew we almost lost you there. Our tank usually strafes to his left, so we don't have to move while healing."

I'm pretty sure most raiders have muscle memory for what to do on a boss fight. A lot of times, you can't really state why you do something a particular way until you are forced to do it differently (either by having someone new or by deliberately experimenting yourself) and experience the result. Then you have an 'Ah-ha!' moment and say, "Now I remember why we always do it this way.".

No matter how many Tankspot or Learn2Raid videos I watch or TL;DR forum posts I write up, there is no way to really fully capture what every single person in a ten man raid should be doing. Those guides can only give a framework for how a fight should be executed, but it is up to all ten people in the raid to develop their own personal strategy. Week after week, I keep coming away from some of the boss fights thinking, "Ugh, I made a lot of mistakes" or "I still don't feel good whenever I do this boss". That's my subconscious telling me that I don't have a solid personal strategy for the boss fight.

Note that this doesn't apply to every boss. I always feel great doing Baleroc. I think we're actually killing him cleaner each week. For fights like Shannox, though, I never feel good after killing that boss. Too many close calls and slip ups either by myself or I observe others. Some bosses it really does just feel like luck.

What spurned this TL;DR rant?

Right now, every boss kill by Jeff's group from Shannox to Majordomo feels like farming -- it doesn't feel like luck. I can try to interview every member of that raid roster to try and distill a strategy to replicate, but it won't work. They'll say, "You're pretty much doing it the same way we're doing it.". Only once they're actually in the raid can their muscle memory tell them that something is wrong. Case in point -- when Waterdrop subbed for us on Shannox, he commented, "Why are so many people getting hit by the AoE pulse from the spear?". It's not like any Tankspot or Learn2Raid video said to do that in their strategy. It's an element of personal raid strategy that Jeff's group arrived at in some point while repeatedly working on that boss. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the DPS forgot why they were piled near Shannox while killing Rageface -- it's just muscle memory at that point.

Whatever. I guess I should just chill out and let what happens happen. Firelands will get nerfed when 4.3 comes out.

-HP

I guess that's true. I didn't even realize we stacked near Shannox for Rageface. I just end up following the dog around wherever it goes, and charge when he jumps.

there is a reason for at least some of the random stuff that i ramble about before bosses

yea Shannox has become pretty unexciting and is more like muscle memory. Pot and pound on rageface, charge when he jumps, kill rageface, break Steve out of Trap , Hit Shannox, watch for traps, jump on Riplimb (not needed this week), then pew pew last part while watching TV

Beiner wrote:yea Shannox has become pretty unexciting and is more like muscle memory. Pot and pound on rageface, charge when he jumps, kill rageface, break Steve out of Trap , Hit Shannox, watch for traps, jump on Riplimb (not needed this week), then pew pew last part while watching TV

you forgot one last break mestaar out after shannox is dead

I agree that a lot of our kills (hell, some weeks all of our kills) feel like luck compared to Jeff's group who cruises through 6 bosses in one raid night. I still slip up after a couple times failing on Shannox, that's how I ended up in a trap on one of our last attempts. I get frustrated myself when I'm running all over the place chasing Rageface when 2 minutes before the fight we mentioned that we're stacking near the boss.. I have no way of closing distance like other melee classes. On that fight, I've for the most part tuned myself to watching my feet, watching the people next to me (which is why I call out if a nearby person has a trap under them), and if I break Rageface's facerage then I try to make sure when Rageface turns to me to rage that he's not going to step on a crystal trap. What we struggled with last week was we couldn't keep Rageface out of those traps, which means we spend time breaking the crystal rather than Rageface, so it just lengthens the fight and gives more time for this random stuff to happen.

you may be better off just staying on shannox the whole time. i don't bother with rageface because i also can't really keep up and can't hit him for 30k anyway, so i'd prolly be more than a distraction running around than anything else.

chris wrote: I get frustrated myself when I'm running all over the place chasing Rageface when 2 minutes before the fight we mentioned that we're stacking near the boss.. I have no way of closing distance like other melee classes.

Healing this fight, I don't get why this is so hard for our group. Stay near the boss and Rageface comes to us. Maybe I should start pulling stragglers with Leap.

draven wrote:you may be better off just staying on shannox the whole time. i don't bother with rageface because i also can't really keep up and can't hit him for 30k anyway, so i'd prolly be more than a distraction running around than anything else.

I can do that, but I do have an ability that'll crit for over 30k fully buffed (Howling Blast) but I can hit that from quite a distance.

I quietly mentioned it last week but this week I'll make sure everyone hears me when I say, "When we wipe on any boss, its never because we reached the enrage timer. It's a issue related in one form or another to healing. The raid needs to help the healers as much as possible by picking up the survival talents available to them. Getting max DPS out of your character isn't as important as getting max survivability is."

Now, this may not directly be the healers fault. DPS stepping in shit, or undergeared tanks (because we have to use a new one every week) isn't really something the healers can control. What we can try to negate is damage taken that shouldn't have been. If you can't avoid stepping in the fire at least help the raid out by choosing the talents that will help you live through your mistakes.

Also, if we're going to break down specific fights then look at how many times Rageface jumps me. Inori said I had a 12% chance of getting rapecaged by Rageface yet in one attempt he came at me 7 times. If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.