Due to ongoing attendance issues for Ulduar 25, we will try out the following compromise for a few weeks. Hopefully it will work out, but if not, we can always change it back.
1) We will be raiding jointly with Benediction every other week. The current headcount looks like they can fill half of the raid and Forged Alliance will provide the other half. The goal for this raid is progression.
1a) The loot will follow Benediction's loot rules; FA DKP will not be used. Their system is main spec > offspec open rolls. The main spec is your 'if the raid makeup didn't matter, my spec would be tank/healer/DPS (your best set of gear)'. They implement a rough 'per night/week' golf scoring system -- if you've won a piece or two of loot earlier in the night, you'll be asked to pass on later gear even if you got the highest roll. Their system is pretty informal compared to ours; we'll see how it works out.
1b) On joint raiding weeks, we will be raiding Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday nights from 8PM to 11PM. That's nine hours of progression raiding which should be adequate for clearing Yogg (e.g., clear FL, XT, Kolo, Auriaya, 2 keepers on Tuesday, 2 keepers + Vezzax on Wednesday, Yogg practice on Thursday). Note that depending on how fast we progress, we can change up the schedule (e.g., if we're one shotting all the bosses, we could toss Razor, Ignis, and IC on the first night and do three keepers on the second night).
2) For the Forged Alliance raid weeks, I'll dial down the progression pressure. If we're wiping on a boss for 30 minutes with no signs of improvement, we'll change to something easier (e.g., Razorscale, OS25, WG25) or call it early for the night.
2a) Forged Alliance Ulduar 25 raids will use FA DKP.
2b) For now, we'll stick with just Tuesday and Thursday raids on FA weeks.
Note that this system is a compromise. As it stands, we're cancelling raids. For those who I may have pressured into running 25 Ulduar with us if they would rather not, I apologize and I thank you for helping out. I do still encourage you to come on the FA weeks and with the reduced progression pressure, I hope that the atmosphere will be more fun.
Lastly, this joint raiding compromise is an experiment. A lot of things can happen. The Benediction folks may find us so agreeable, they join the guild. We may find that our raiding style is completely incompatible and we may call it off. We may be able to sustain a progression 25 Ulduar on our own in the future (e.g., a bunch of people on WoW hiatus come back, recruitment picks up, Blizzard nerfs Ulduar 25 further) and phase out joint raiding. At the moment, I think this is the best option to keep 25 raiding going. I ask that people be patient and give it a chance.
Thanks.
-HP
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
For the more recent Ulduar 25 raids, a few observations:
1) It looks like more people are familiar with the fight mechanics. This is tremendously helpful to myself since I don't have to give a rundown of the strategy before each fight. I thank everyone for making this effort; please keep up the good work by reading up ahead of time on the fights and being observant during the fight (we should be improving each attempt, week after week).
2) We have been cycling some new tanks and new healers into the mix. I ask that the raid be patient with us because some raid mechanics that were 'instinctive' before are being exposed. For example, I give very loose healing guidelines and a lot of the healers direct themselves. This has the downside of me making some assumptions for some fights that fall apart if 'the same old healing crew' isn't there. I apologize for the boss attempts where my healer count was off by one -- I will do a better job of verifying all the healers are in the /fahealer channel before the boss pulls in the future.
3) It is becoming apparent that Blizzard has not nerfed Ulduar 25 to be PUG-able. Everyone is responsible for playing at a high level and constantly improving week after week -- believe me, it's not your gear. The best example for this was Iron Council the other night. When we hit the enrage timer on the 2nd to last attempt, we found out that our DPS was poor. For the subsequent kill, nothing was changed in the raid -- we didn't swap out any players, we didn't change any assignments. The only thing that changed is that people were called out for not playing their best.
-HP
1) It looks like more people are familiar with the fight mechanics. This is tremendously helpful to myself since I don't have to give a rundown of the strategy before each fight. I thank everyone for making this effort; please keep up the good work by reading up ahead of time on the fights and being observant during the fight (we should be improving each attempt, week after week).
2) We have been cycling some new tanks and new healers into the mix. I ask that the raid be patient with us because some raid mechanics that were 'instinctive' before are being exposed. For example, I give very loose healing guidelines and a lot of the healers direct themselves. This has the downside of me making some assumptions for some fights that fall apart if 'the same old healing crew' isn't there. I apologize for the boss attempts where my healer count was off by one -- I will do a better job of verifying all the healers are in the /fahealer channel before the boss pulls in the future.
3) It is becoming apparent that Blizzard has not nerfed Ulduar 25 to be PUG-able. Everyone is responsible for playing at a high level and constantly improving week after week -- believe me, it's not your gear. The best example for this was Iron Council the other night. When we hit the enrage timer on the 2nd to last attempt, we found out that our DPS was poor. For the subsequent kill, nothing was changed in the raid -- we didn't swap out any players, we didn't change any assignments. The only thing that changed is that people were called out for not playing their best.
-HP
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WarmApplePie
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Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
As I recall, the calling out was even by one of Namas' other guild members. Was he rude? Maybe. Did it need to be said? Absolutely. We've scared away (example = Nagashi) or beaten into submission (me) all of our previous members who would have been on top of calling people out. IMO we need to take more drastic measures like merging raids with another guild. We tried this before and ended up just driving away from the game our old friends in General Goods. Honestly though, that attempt failed because there were not enough of them to make a difference in our overall raid performance.
Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
We're definitely toeing the line between hardcore and casual guild with that. Calling people out for performance is fine, but it should most definitely be done in the most courteous and private manner first, with more drastic measures taken as needed. Being rude I think is out of the question, no matter how minor it is, especially if it's a non-guildie doing it to a guildie. I know I definitely won't put up with that, there needs to be respect or it's just not even fun anymore.
I don't think that's why it didn't work out with General Goods, a lot of other factors contributed heavily.
I don't think that's why it didn't work out with General Goods, a lot of other factors contributed heavily.
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WarmApplePie
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- Joined: February 17th, 2008, 10:18 am
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Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
What I meant about General Goods is that there wasn't enough of them to make us not suck anymore, and they got fed up and stopped playing WoW. Just like a lot of other people that quit playing the game recently from our guild.
Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
I don't think we "suck", at all. We're not a hardcore raiding guild and can't be expected to perform as one. Can we improve? Of course. There's always room for improvement. But some people will never be happy, no matter the amount of progress we make. We need to remember that first and foremost we're supposed to be friendly and approachable, not elitist and rude. Catching more flies with honey and whatnot.
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WarmApplePie
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Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
Yeah that sounds all nice and all, but when we aren't progressing then people quit logging on which only compounds our raid problems.
Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
I said before and i will say again. Theres nothing rude about asking that someone meet a minimum standard. IF you cannot reach 2500 dps, why are you raiding? Once an assist is made (politely) i agree), then why cant someone simply show up and press a few buttons?
I am not asking anyone to be hardcore, but it really seems a cop out if the "were not hardcore so we cant say anything about anyone" is used.
Thats just telling everyone there is no standard, so do whatever the frak you want to. Its not ok to have some rules but say we cannot have others.
I also suggested several things that i know for a fact work. The only output we are getting on our input is that we are are not hardcore so we really shouldnt rock the boat.
IF thats the only attitude you have, then you are going to continue to not only lose people, but you will fail to recruit anyone as well.
I have said if in front of alot of sentences here, so remember that please.
I want to progress and have fun sure, thats why i have (mostly) been in FA from the start.
I went with my friends to GG cause i thought that was the direction to go.
I realize now (since they have all bailed on me) that was a mistake, so i came back to FA and i want to see us have fun AND progress.
The two are not mutually exclusive, unless you choose to treat them as such.
I am not asking anyone to be hardcore, but it really seems a cop out if the "were not hardcore so we cant say anything about anyone" is used.
Thats just telling everyone there is no standard, so do whatever the frak you want to. Its not ok to have some rules but say we cannot have others.
I also suggested several things that i know for a fact work. The only output we are getting on our input is that we are are not hardcore so we really shouldnt rock the boat.
IF thats the only attitude you have, then you are going to continue to not only lose people, but you will fail to recruit anyone as well.
I have said if in front of alot of sentences here, so remember that please.
I want to progress and have fun sure, thats why i have (mostly) been in FA from the start.
I went with my friends to GG cause i thought that was the direction to go.
I realize now (since they have all bailed on me) that was a mistake, so i came back to FA and i want to see us have fun AND progress.
The two are not mutually exclusive, unless you choose to treat them as such.
Blastine Deathrow Darkehn - Melting your face or healing it back on since Blackrock Depths
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
I'm sorry about my friend calling out on some people, I talked him about it afterward.
None the Less, it all comes out to what we all want to do. Some here just to socialize and forced to come to raid, and some who wants to progress and gear them selves up.
It's not fair to casual players to be on their A-games ALL THE TIME and be extremely serious about each and every boss fight, and IT is also not fair for those hardcore raiders who wants to progress and gear them selves up but can't due to lack of players who's serious about raiding.
The only reason my "alt" guild was created is because I ran multiple successful Ulduar 25 pug raids (few failed one ya I know) and they want to come back week after week.
Yes, I do think very highly of you guys and that's why I brought my top dpser/tanks to u guys' ulduar 25 to help out. But it just isn't gonna work if you guys still gonna bring people who doesn't care about rading at all and dashing out 2k dps while can't stay alive for more than 2 min. I mean I thought by you guys only inviting top raiders in the guild and me filling out the rest of slot with geared people would make us progress much faster and easier.
BY NO MEAN, I want you guys to change up stuff just because. I'm only here suggest. I could care less what you guys decide to do because I'll always raid with you guys and also with my alt guildies. But there's no way any of my alt guildies will join you guys if we fail ulduar 25 like that every week. I mean that's something to think about. You can't recruit quality people by doing what you guys are doing right now. How can you recruit anyone if we don't even have first floor bosses on the farm? how can I ask my friends to join you guys when my random pugs do so much better than FA run?
But in the end, up to you guys. I'm fine either way. sorry for the long post.
None the Less, it all comes out to what we all want to do. Some here just to socialize and forced to come to raid, and some who wants to progress and gear them selves up.
It's not fair to casual players to be on their A-games ALL THE TIME and be extremely serious about each and every boss fight, and IT is also not fair for those hardcore raiders who wants to progress and gear them selves up but can't due to lack of players who's serious about raiding.
The only reason my "alt" guild was created is because I ran multiple successful Ulduar 25 pug raids (few failed one ya I know) and they want to come back week after week.
Yes, I do think very highly of you guys and that's why I brought my top dpser/tanks to u guys' ulduar 25 to help out. But it just isn't gonna work if you guys still gonna bring people who doesn't care about rading at all and dashing out 2k dps while can't stay alive for more than 2 min. I mean I thought by you guys only inviting top raiders in the guild and me filling out the rest of slot with geared people would make us progress much faster and easier.
BY NO MEAN, I want you guys to change up stuff just because. I'm only here suggest. I could care less what you guys decide to do because I'll always raid with you guys and also with my alt guildies. But there's no way any of my alt guildies will join you guys if we fail ulduar 25 like that every week. I mean that's something to think about. You can't recruit quality people by doing what you guys are doing right now. How can you recruit anyone if we don't even have first floor bosses on the farm? how can I ask my friends to join you guys when my random pugs do so much better than FA run?
But in the end, up to you guys. I'm fine either way. sorry for the long post.
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
First, I didn't say anything was wrong with telling people they're not doing well, I said it wasn't right to do it rudely and publicly, unless it's pretty clear they're not trying after several discreet warnings. I definitely never said "we're not hardcore, so we can't say anything to anyone". It's not quite fair to ask the questions "if you're not pulling X dps, why are you raiding?", mostly because you don't know why certain people are playing. There can be people who absolutely blow at the game, are trying their best, but love to raid. They like the social aspect, and they have fun. I can't see it being fair to them to exclude them from doing stuff with their friends because we don't think they're good enough. But, I also agree with what Eunn said, in that it's equally unfair to the people who do like being hardcore, and are only on for loot and progression.
Another thing to think about is morale. With the forum posts and guildchat going on about how much we suck and fail, and why we're not succeeding, etc. etc. (see the last few posts, and any raid night in gchat basically), you're not only going to discourage people to not try so much until there's an influx of new people or drastic changes, but you're turning what's supposed to be some people's fun relaxing time into a stressful insult-fest. For as many people that aren't trying, we have at least an equal number that are, and I'd like to think that they would like to feel like their time and effort isn't going to complete waste.
Another thing to think about is morale. With the forum posts and guildchat going on about how much we suck and fail, and why we're not succeeding, etc. etc. (see the last few posts, and any raid night in gchat basically), you're not only going to discourage people to not try so much until there's an influx of new people or drastic changes, but you're turning what's supposed to be some people's fun relaxing time into a stressful insult-fest. For as many people that aren't trying, we have at least an equal number that are, and I'd like to think that they would like to feel like their time and effort isn't going to complete waste.
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
Yes,
you actually are telling me i cant say anything.
You are saying that if or two people cant cut it, then i have to just say oh well to bad no matter how hard i try we arent going to get anywhere because i cant say anything to someone who does 2k dps.
this isnt a time where the 60% pull their weight and the other 40 kinda hang in, this is a time where week after week we have 20 people who come to raid, and we are short 3 to 5 people, and someone just isnt doing enough dps.
I wont point fingers out, but i was ashamed to have someone come into our raid and see that people that were geared were doing LESS than 2k.
The bottom line here is youre saying i insult someone by telling them they arent pulling their weight, and im saying that its not fair to ask me to come and spend my time week after week to go nowhere.
In the end its ultimately up to you how you want to handle it. IF the only reply is always going to be that we dont want to hurt anyones feelings, then we should go play hello kitty island adventure imho. This is just my opinion btw, so take it as such
you actually are telling me i cant say anything.
You are saying that if or two people cant cut it, then i have to just say oh well to bad no matter how hard i try we arent going to get anywhere because i cant say anything to someone who does 2k dps.
this isnt a time where the 60% pull their weight and the other 40 kinda hang in, this is a time where week after week we have 20 people who come to raid, and we are short 3 to 5 people, and someone just isnt doing enough dps.
I wont point fingers out, but i was ashamed to have someone come into our raid and see that people that were geared were doing LESS than 2k.
The bottom line here is youre saying i insult someone by telling them they arent pulling their weight, and im saying that its not fair to ask me to come and spend my time week after week to go nowhere.
In the end its ultimately up to you how you want to handle it. IF the only reply is always going to be that we dont want to hurt anyones feelings, then we should go play hello kitty island adventure imho. This is just my opinion btw, so take it as such
Blastine Deathrow Darkehn - Melting your face or healing it back on since Blackrock Depths
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
I haven't told you what you can or can't say. I said what would be "nice" and what wouldn't be. And if you would read my entire post, you would also see that I agree those people need to be told what to do to improve, or to not mess up, but (and I also specifically said) if they're perpetually doing it and it seems to be because lack of effort, then the time comes to throw down. If the entire raid is held back by 2 people, then yes, that is a problem, but probably for more than those 2 people. To bring down 20+ people it's going to take more than that.
I never said you insult people, I said we don't WANT to insult people. In addition to that, no one is asking you to come and spend your time. And no one is asking you to come and spend your time doing nothing. I have said far, far more than "let's not hurt people's feelings", but you'll read what you want to read.
Henry has worked out a way in which basically everyone wins. Every person gets their way at one time or another. It's pretty much the only fair way to do anything now. Trying to teach bad people how to be good is not what you guys want. Having a Nazi raid is not what some of us want. Alternating between the two is kind of the only solution.
I never said you insult people, I said we don't WANT to insult people. In addition to that, no one is asking you to come and spend your time. And no one is asking you to come and spend your time doing nothing. I have said far, far more than "let's not hurt people's feelings", but you'll read what you want to read.
Henry has worked out a way in which basically everyone wins. Every person gets their way at one time or another. It's pretty much the only fair way to do anything now. Trying to teach bad people how to be good is not what you guys want. Having a Nazi raid is not what some of us want. Alternating between the two is kind of the only solution.
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
The main post is up guys. I'd like to reinforce that it is a compromise. We've been bouncing around other options, but I did want to lay out a few additional scenarios.
In Burning Crusade, Forged Alliance was historically a tier behind in content. When everyone was in Sunwell, we were in Black Temple; when everyone was in Black Temple, we were in Hyjal, etc. Following that logic, one option would have been to just pull out of Ulduar 25 and just raid Naxx 25. A lot of people don't want to do Naxxramas anymore and then we'd be running a lot of PUGs (and everyone knows how PUG Naxxramas ends up going).
Another option would have been to maintain the status quo, cancel raids due to attendance here and there, and wait for the next raid instance (Argent Colliseum) to come out. Note that I have no intention of PUGging to fill spots in Ulduar 25 (if it's bad for Naxx, it's going to be worse in Ulduar). This is what we'll probably fall back to if the joint raiding doesn't work out.
Ideally, we should be able to run three Ulduar 10 groups alongside the one Ulduar 25 raid. However, that would require six tanks and nine healers which we just don't have. Ulduar 25 is our best option for making the end game content in World of Warcraft accessible to the greatest number in guild. It is my opinion that Ulduar 10 is harder than Ulduar 25 because every person counts more (e.g., in a 10 man, if one DPS dies, you lose 20% of your DPS; if one healer dies, you lose 33% of your healing; tanks are always tanks).
Blame Blizzard for being fond of fight mechanics that emphasize 'bringing the player'. They love putting bombs on people (Astromancer Solarian) or shuffling us and making us reposition on the fly (Gruul shatter). They love forcing us to use DPS enhancements to beat enrage timers (Thaddius polarity buff). In Ulduar 25, they have not tuned the fights to be undermanned.
For those raiders frustrated with our progression, please be patient. I've asked a lot of people to help fill out the raids so that they wouldn't be cancelled; we're just at the point now where we will ask outside of the guild every other week.
For those raiders who want to improve, please ask for help. If you're missing events like a bomb being placed on you, it's usually a user interface problem (turn on those audible cues and screen shake). If you're always caught out of position, let me know; I can walk through the positioning strategy and perhaps arrange for a less stressful location. If your DPS is bad, ask around. A lot of times, it's just that your talent spec or DPS rotation is broken.
For those raiders who are taking plays off or don't really care, thanks for coming so that the raids won't be cancelled. I purposefully did not compare the WWS parse for the Iron Council wipe and success the other week because I don't want to know. I know there are people not interested in raiding and I'm sorry for begging you to help out. With the new compromise system in place, hopefully you can go back to doing what you enjoy on your Tuesday and Thursday evenings.
-HP
In Burning Crusade, Forged Alliance was historically a tier behind in content. When everyone was in Sunwell, we were in Black Temple; when everyone was in Black Temple, we were in Hyjal, etc. Following that logic, one option would have been to just pull out of Ulduar 25 and just raid Naxx 25. A lot of people don't want to do Naxxramas anymore and then we'd be running a lot of PUGs (and everyone knows how PUG Naxxramas ends up going).
Another option would have been to maintain the status quo, cancel raids due to attendance here and there, and wait for the next raid instance (Argent Colliseum) to come out. Note that I have no intention of PUGging to fill spots in Ulduar 25 (if it's bad for Naxx, it's going to be worse in Ulduar). This is what we'll probably fall back to if the joint raiding doesn't work out.
Ideally, we should be able to run three Ulduar 10 groups alongside the one Ulduar 25 raid. However, that would require six tanks and nine healers which we just don't have. Ulduar 25 is our best option for making the end game content in World of Warcraft accessible to the greatest number in guild. It is my opinion that Ulduar 10 is harder than Ulduar 25 because every person counts more (e.g., in a 10 man, if one DPS dies, you lose 20% of your DPS; if one healer dies, you lose 33% of your healing; tanks are always tanks).
Blame Blizzard for being fond of fight mechanics that emphasize 'bringing the player'. They love putting bombs on people (Astromancer Solarian) or shuffling us and making us reposition on the fly (Gruul shatter). They love forcing us to use DPS enhancements to beat enrage timers (Thaddius polarity buff). In Ulduar 25, they have not tuned the fights to be undermanned.
For those raiders frustrated with our progression, please be patient. I've asked a lot of people to help fill out the raids so that they wouldn't be cancelled; we're just at the point now where we will ask outside of the guild every other week.
For those raiders who want to improve, please ask for help. If you're missing events like a bomb being placed on you, it's usually a user interface problem (turn on those audible cues and screen shake). If you're always caught out of position, let me know; I can walk through the positioning strategy and perhaps arrange for a less stressful location. If your DPS is bad, ask around. A lot of times, it's just that your talent spec or DPS rotation is broken.
For those raiders who are taking plays off or don't really care, thanks for coming so that the raids won't be cancelled. I purposefully did not compare the WWS parse for the Iron Council wipe and success the other week because I don't want to know. I know there are people not interested in raiding and I'm sorry for begging you to help out. With the new compromise system in place, hopefully you can go back to doing what you enjoy on your Tuesday and Thursday evenings.
-HP
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
I find it interesting that you say you dont want to insult anyone, but you are prety insulting when you say no one is asking me to come spend my time. If you are not asking me then why do you raid invite me? Why do you put out raid invites on the calendar if you arent asking people to come spend time? Easy, the asnwer is you are.
It doesnt take more than 2 or 3 people to hold the rest back, especially if they are dps. do the math. on a 10 min fight dps players 1-7 do 3500 dps. players 8,9 abd 10 are doing 2100 dps.
If the average dps is 3k, then there is roughly 125k damage per minute not being done, with a total of 1.25 million damage over the fight that is not being done. This is a very real picture on many FA boss fights.
You agree that someone should go help the people that are not putting out as they should be, yet no one does.
You say you have said far,far more than lets not hurt peoples feelings, yet every single post on here is about worrying if someone is going to be offended, not specifically what we are going to do to address the issues we have.
I dont want, nor have i ever seen "Nazi raids" so im not even going to address that.
I dont know if my guildmates who are doing subpar are bad players, or just people that might not know a benefit of a certain spec or method.
I was speaking to thandrenn last night telling him how i was initially trying SO hard at the start of ulduar 25s, and still consistently doing 2 to 2.6k dps.
I didnt know what i was doing wrong. i tried benvolos spec, and i kept running oom all the time, and still really not doing more than about 2.6
I spent a little time doing research, and talking to people, and i realized where my errors were, and i increased 1k dps overnight.
Instead of talking about extremes, why dont we talk about solutions that are realistic, and ways to improve?
It doesnt take more than 2 or 3 people to hold the rest back, especially if they are dps. do the math. on a 10 min fight dps players 1-7 do 3500 dps. players 8,9 abd 10 are doing 2100 dps.
If the average dps is 3k, then there is roughly 125k damage per minute not being done, with a total of 1.25 million damage over the fight that is not being done. This is a very real picture on many FA boss fights.
You agree that someone should go help the people that are not putting out as they should be, yet no one does.
You say you have said far,far more than lets not hurt peoples feelings, yet every single post on here is about worrying if someone is going to be offended, not specifically what we are going to do to address the issues we have.
I dont want, nor have i ever seen "Nazi raids" so im not even going to address that.
I dont know if my guildmates who are doing subpar are bad players, or just people that might not know a benefit of a certain spec or method.
I was speaking to thandrenn last night telling him how i was initially trying SO hard at the start of ulduar 25s, and still consistently doing 2 to 2.6k dps.
I didnt know what i was doing wrong. i tried benvolos spec, and i kept running oom all the time, and still really not doing more than about 2.6
I spent a little time doing research, and talking to people, and i realized where my errors were, and i increased 1k dps overnight.
Instead of talking about extremes, why dont we talk about solutions that are realistic, and ways to improve?
Blastine Deathrow Darkehn - Melting your face or healing it back on since Blackrock Depths
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
I'm not meaning to be insulting when I say that. What I mean to say is, it is a raid INVITE, not a raid REQUIREMENT, so you are choosing to spend your time doing so. No one is forcing you, and though the hard work and time is appreciated, it is not by any means being forced upon anyone.
Yes, if you do have 2 or 3 people performing abysmally over a long fight period, it can affect its outcome. But it shouldn't make or break every single fight.
The people who aren't performing as they should be are generally different classes than my own. I can't help a mage or a warlock or a shaman improve dps, because I have no idea how they do it. That's where the people who consider themselves to be knowledgeable should step in and offer to help, kindly, and try to teach them how to do it appropriately. It's really not that difficult a concept. The people who want this raid to succeed can't sit back and just complain and throw suggestions, they should actively help to improve them, which in our case seems to be sub-par players. Helping them learn their class and how to play it properly would be a good first step.
I am worried about hurting someone because this is first and foremost, a game. People seem to forget that a lot. Everyone here is here of their own free will, spending their own personal time and money, to enjoy themselves. If they're bad at the game, and they're trying their best, that's something we should work on. If they're bad at the game, but then they just don't care, that's something else entirely. This guild is made up of 90% friends. The rest is friends of friends. There's a very small percentage of us who are actually just random Destromath inhabitants. Why would you want to be purposely hurtful to anyone, regardless of the reason, in a game? Especially since in our guild you run the greater risk of also offending their friends, and starting a chain reaction of issues that could hurt raid attendance even more. It's pretty much the Golden Rule combined with foresight.
It's great that you worked out your dps issues on your own, and ideally, people should be able to do that. But some aren't aware of the resources, and aren't as web-savvy as a lot of us. Casual players are not going to have the knowledge to take that kind of initiative. That's where us helping instead of pruning and criticizing comes in.
Yes, if you do have 2 or 3 people performing abysmally over a long fight period, it can affect its outcome. But it shouldn't make or break every single fight.
The people who aren't performing as they should be are generally different classes than my own. I can't help a mage or a warlock or a shaman improve dps, because I have no idea how they do it. That's where the people who consider themselves to be knowledgeable should step in and offer to help, kindly, and try to teach them how to do it appropriately. It's really not that difficult a concept. The people who want this raid to succeed can't sit back and just complain and throw suggestions, they should actively help to improve them, which in our case seems to be sub-par players. Helping them learn their class and how to play it properly would be a good first step.
I am worried about hurting someone because this is first and foremost, a game. People seem to forget that a lot. Everyone here is here of their own free will, spending their own personal time and money, to enjoy themselves. If they're bad at the game, and they're trying their best, that's something we should work on. If they're bad at the game, but then they just don't care, that's something else entirely. This guild is made up of 90% friends. The rest is friends of friends. There's a very small percentage of us who are actually just random Destromath inhabitants. Why would you want to be purposely hurtful to anyone, regardless of the reason, in a game? Especially since in our guild you run the greater risk of also offending their friends, and starting a chain reaction of issues that could hurt raid attendance even more. It's pretty much the Golden Rule combined with foresight.
It's great that you worked out your dps issues on your own, and ideally, people should be able to do that. But some aren't aware of the resources, and aren't as web-savvy as a lot of us. Casual players are not going to have the knowledge to take that kind of initiative. That's where us helping instead of pruning and criticizing comes in.
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
You asked me to give it a chance so i am going to. I guess i dont understand the whole thing where you ask me to raid, and then tell me it doesnt matter what i do while i raid, and i guess i never will.
I wont try and discuss anything more here since there appears to be no discussion other than making sure no one gets offended, and thats not going to get us anywhere. Ever
I was only trying to help, so i will do what i have always done. I will be there when i can, and when i cant then i wont worry about it anymore, and if it becomes something not fun, i will move on to something fun.
I am not sure who is really my "friend" here since Mason (chuunks) was my friend who first got me into FA, and aside from being welcomed by all of you, i dont give or take the term friend lightly. My friends know that i am down for them at almost any cost, so please dont take this the wrong way.
I hope to be more friendly with everyone, and i will do whatever is asked to fill my role, whatever that may be, for however long i am here.
I otherwise refuse to rehash this same thing over and over, since thats all we are doing
I wont try and discuss anything more here since there appears to be no discussion other than making sure no one gets offended, and thats not going to get us anywhere. Ever
I was only trying to help, so i will do what i have always done. I will be there when i can, and when i cant then i wont worry about it anymore, and if it becomes something not fun, i will move on to something fun.
I am not sure who is really my "friend" here since Mason (chuunks) was my friend who first got me into FA, and aside from being welcomed by all of you, i dont give or take the term friend lightly. My friends know that i am down for them at almost any cost, so please dont take this the wrong way.
I hope to be more friendly with everyone, and i will do whatever is asked to fill my role, whatever that may be, for however long i am here.
I otherwise refuse to rehash this same thing over and over, since thats all we are doing
Blastine Deathrow Darkehn - Melting your face or healing it back on since Blackrock Depths
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
Deathrow, what he is saying is there is a big difference between:
/w Noobadin Hey, your dps is really low, what's going on and do you need help with your spec/rotation?
and
/raid HEY NOOBADIN YOU FREAKIN FAIL WTF ARE YOU DOING? Someone needs to kick this clown!
The idea is not 'stay silent if you see someone failing', it's try and help them without being mean about it.
Ofie's just saying it's possible to push people to do better without being mean/offensive about it. Now obviously if someone gets offended for even asking nicely about it, then that's a different issue altogether. But I've seen people mess up something in a raid, I whispered them about it, they fixed it, boss dies, and no scene was made.
We came from a guild in the past that had people that liked to berate others on vent when they messed up which is what Ofie's probably trying to steer clear from seeing happen in this guild. That guild fell apart cause people didn't want to sign on and deal with the negativity. It did more damage than the lack of progression.
It's about pushing for quality without sacrificing the friendly nature of a casual guild.
/w Noobadin Hey, your dps is really low, what's going on and do you need help with your spec/rotation?
and
/raid HEY NOOBADIN YOU FREAKIN FAIL WTF ARE YOU DOING? Someone needs to kick this clown!
The idea is not 'stay silent if you see someone failing', it's try and help them without being mean about it.
Ofie's just saying it's possible to push people to do better without being mean/offensive about it. Now obviously if someone gets offended for even asking nicely about it, then that's a different issue altogether. But I've seen people mess up something in a raid, I whispered them about it, they fixed it, boss dies, and no scene was made.
We came from a guild in the past that had people that liked to berate others on vent when they messed up which is what Ofie's probably trying to steer clear from seeing happen in this guild. That guild fell apart cause people didn't want to sign on and deal with the negativity. It did more damage than the lack of progression.
It's about pushing for quality without sacrificing the friendly nature of a casual guild.
Joint Raiding Policy + Current State of Ulduar 25
And just to clarify, watching people fail at really easy boss mechanics frustrates me to no end. But on the same token, I've tried whispering people I know for sure are confused and seen it work. If more of us veterans that understand the game were looking out for people that need help, it's possible we can mold some raiders out of rookies. We can do it without also being condescending about it. I wasn't there for the event that the original example spawned from, but you can 'call out' bad players while still being respectful of the fact that there is someone on the other screen.