Loot System Flaws - Fix?

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » February 10th, 2009, 12:51 am

The post that should have been made last night.

In my /whisper rant to Wadup he said that we decided a few weeks ago that Saph/KT were for the people that have been there for awhile. That must have been announced over vent on a Thursday because I don't see it in any of the relevant threads and I don't remember hearing it. I'll just give that one to you though, fine Saph/KT is for the people that have been there awhile. So why then when Armageddon dropped did Whitetadpole not get it? It drops off of 4horsemen not off Saph/KT. You tried to give it to a DK and he had to pass to get it to Crusher. If weapons are also exempt then this needs to be stated. The t7.5 chest roll off that same boss was rolled on by Whitetadpole and yet an attempt was made to give it to Thandrenn. Thandrenn had to pass and say to give it to White. Now this one doesn't bother me so much because he is MT and MT should get everything first. But still, this is a 3rd instance of mis-distribution regarding White. Ursa got kicked out of the guild for bitching about not being able to roll on leather items. We said that since he had plate and mail to choose from also that leather would go to a leather wearer first. Yet this rule was not enforced when Pixiedream (A RL friend and leather wearer) rolled on cloth and won over a clothie. What is our rule on this? Next lets talk about poor poor Hamline. The guy can't get any t7.5 tokens because his loot tallies are all used up on ANY mail spell power gear. The system should not count loot that nobody else wants/uses.

I'm not actually against this loot system, there are just some rules that either need to be defined, or followed more closely. If we want to impose a 1 raid week wait period on first timers then fine, thats fair. Ofcourse loot that was to otherwise be sharded would be given to the new guy. Saph/KT loot only obtainable after X weeks fine, stick to it. Want to expand that Saph/KT loot to Weapons fine, state it then stick to it. Perhaps another way to word this would be all ilvl 226 items and ilvl 213 weapons are only obtainable after X weeks in the raid.

Possible Rules:
All loot 1 week wait period.
All ilvl 226 items 3 week wait period.
All ilvl 213 weapons 3 week wait period.
Armor proficiencies followed.
Non item set loot doesn't count against you if you are the only one rolling on it.

Thanks for reading. Discuss.
-Wap

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » February 10th, 2009, 3:06 am

First off, imo leaving the guild didn't solve and won't in the future solve any problems like this. Second, I've heard the Sapph/KT rule stated at least once, but I don't know where it was. The rule makes sense, as you stated. Third, I've taken every single plate spell power piece and lost out on tier tokens as a result. No one else wants or uses that, yet I still have loot tallies. It's lame, but I'd rather the gear not get wasted then just shard it and hope for other stuff to drop. It's mainly about being a team player instead of trying to get the best loot the fastest way possible. You need to reverse the situation and see how you would feel if you weren't friends with the affected party. If you had an item drop you really wanted, and another shaman that showed up for just that night, or that was only his second or third night after you spent the last 2 months in there, would you not be slightly peeved if he got it instead of you? I could see a post showing up on the forums over something like that also. In conclusion, White said he didn't even really care in the end, which was extremely sporting of him. The loot system works well, but I think we're starting to see some of the instances where DKP is going to be necesarry. If we had used a normal loot system, he wouldn't have gotten the item anyway, so either way he was basically out of luck. Whether it was fair or not is a matter of opinion, but it's already happened. Wadup or Andy will come into here, and set up some mostly clearly defined loot rules, and it will be settled. Not everyone is going to always agree with what happens or how it happens, but in the end we're all friends, and none of it is meant as a personal slight. And trust me, there are no personal favors or favoritism going on. I've known Wadup IRL for 20 years and I get no special treatment. O.o I wish. I want my pants.

thandrenn · Post by **thandrenn** » February 10th, 2009, 3:13 am

Glad you're back. I agree that it's confusing. We're going to have a post in the forums explaining the system soonish.

Hardwigg · Post by **Hardwigg** » February 10th, 2009, 9:57 am

WarmApplePie wrote
Next lets talk about poor poor Hamline. The guy can't get any t7.5 tokens because his loot tallies are all used up on ANY mail spell power gear. The system should not count loot that nobody else wants/uses.

It should count against my tally. They were defaulted to me, but I wouldn't have taken them had they not been upgrades. It's a bummer to miss out on some 7.5 tokens, sure, but I'll get them eventually - I just upgraded my gear with other pieces first. The only thing that annoys me is when other people pass on minor or obvious upgrades so they can wait for their 7.5. If it's an upgrade, you should take it, end of story. It will help you and the guild. Some sexy 7.5 will show up eventually, and that's what Emblems of Valor are for. Regarding loot rules - a formal set of guidelines is being developed and will be posted in the officer forums as soon as there is a general consensus.

Aezelkvalae · Post by **Aezelkvalae** » February 10th, 2009, 9:59 am

I agree that the problem here is in that we went into 25 man raiding with no clear, written, posted rules on the forums where everyone can read it. No loot system is perfect, but at the moment we are using a system which has frankly been fairly vague, and going by the "oh yeah, remember we said........" method of enforcement. It is just ASKING for problems. When there was in fact finally a conflict, the officers really had no leg to stand on to back up their argument when there was a failure to have concrete rules available. Whatever system we go with it needs to be decided, and posted, and before we raid again tonight.

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » February 10th, 2009, 10:37 am

Ofie wroteYou need to reverse the situation and see how you would feel if you weren't friends with the affected party. If you had an item drop you really wanted, and another shaman that showed up for just that night, or that was only his second or third night after you spent the last 2 months in there, would you not be slightly peeved if he got it instead of you? I could see a post showing up on the forums over something like that also.

You're right I'd be pissed, but those are the rules we started with. I know it was mentioned in the thread where we decided on this loot system that we have lots of new people coming and going often and the powers that be said that it wouldn't matter because of all the loot. Yet when it did happen, the new people got screwed. One person 3 times. If prostitutes had that kind of repeat business they'd be rich.

This is also why I stated the example with Pixiedream. She is a RL friend, but she got loot she shouldn't have. A clothie rolled, it should have gone to them. Passing out loot in a timely manner is a lot to do, alt tabbing to look at the sheet and back into the game to distribute it. Maybe we just need to give someone else master looter. Hamline did it one night and he did fine. Or maybe Tsuni or someone else in the room with Wadup so they can easily communicate the distribution.

And another guildy saw my 4piece and was commenting to me that he didn't have any. Maybe the tier tokens need to be on a seperate tally system or something.

Ulduar isn't even supposed to hit the PTR until this week or next week. We probably still have a month or more of Naxx, this system needs to be fixed.

Hardwigg · Post by **Hardwigg** » February 10th, 2009, 11:07 am

Eureka!!! Let's let CONGRESS fix it for us!!

Beiner · Post by **Beiner** » February 10th, 2009, 11:15 am

God Damn it!!! WTF is this Sh#$... /gquit ! jk But seriously, I know exactly how Hamline feels. I have 0 tier gear, except the gloves from Sarth that I won on a roll that doesn't count to points. I'm known for digging myself in a hole for picking up minor upgrades that I would use rather full time, rather than it being sharded or off-spec'd since it only helps the raid (like that stupid 2H mace I picked up and used for a day that gave me 20 more AP and 10 more expertise). Worse part is, I have to go against more than half the raid since we have so many DKs and Druids and Mages to really stand a chance. I think something should definately be well defined, but at the same time, we also have to understand the challenge of organizing raids and managing 25 people that constantly interchange.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » February 10th, 2009, 12:05 pm

WarmApplePie wrote

You're right I'd be pissed, but those are the rules we started with. I know it was mentioned in the thread where we decided on this loot system that we have lots of new people coming and going often and the powers that be said that it wouldn't matter because of all the loot. Yet when it did happen, the new people got screwed. One person 3 times. If prostitutes had that kind of repeat business they'd be rich.

This is also why I stated the example with Pixiedream. She is a RL friend, but she got loot she shouldn't have. A clothie rolled, it should have gone to them. Passing out loot in a timely manner is a lot to do, alt tabbing to look at the sheet and back into the game to distribute it. Maybe we just need to give someone else master looter. Hamline did it one night and he did fine. Or maybe Tsuni or someone else in the room with Wadup so they can easily communicate the distribution.

And another guildy saw my 4piece and was commenting to me that he didn't have any. Maybe the tier tokens need to be on a seperate tally system or something.

Ulduar isn't even supposed to hit the PTR until this week or next week. We probably still have a month or more of Naxx, this system needs to be fixed.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » February 10th, 2009, 12:17 pm

Wow i messed up my quoting so bad. >< So first of all for the most part new people are making bank on epics in general. And honestly, i dont see someone who's first week of raiding missing out on the top items as being screwed. (New people shouldn't be going in assuming they can just get whatever they want, thats a bonus). I definately agree that the problem is there is no written documentation clearly outlining rules for newbies. That being said i do know Wadup generally lets new people know in whispers what they are entilted and not entitled to roll on. I dont know if in this instance he forgot to clarify it to whitetadpole or if white didnt relay to you he already knew how it worked. And multiple times it was explained in vent but people in general dont pay attention unless it's relevant to them. As for Pixiedream, there was one time recently where I rolled against a druid who i think was her for something, and i told Wadup in RL to just pass it to her cause it was a sidegrade for me. I don't know if that is the instance you have mind? I also do not agree at all that tier pieces should be on a seperate tally system. Its all the same iLvl, and ya it sucks for people like Ofie and Hamline that they get defaulted all this gear while we all have to role against each other in hopes to replace blues and lvl200 gear. But seriously, Ofie got the first Epic achievement in the guild, even though he never gets any of the tier gear. Ya bonuses are nice, but in 4 years of raiding some people just never get full tier gear. And you can buy at least two pieces wiht badges, which i bought mine. Your comment that a guildy saw your 4pc and didnt have any tier gear. That in of itself means nothing. Are they newer to raiding? Are they not running 10mans/25mans at all? Did they waste their badges on gems and mounts instead of Tier gear? Are they taking whatever 25man loot drops even if it isnt itemized right and making their gear count too high to win against people smart enough to only take whats a legitmate itimized upgrade? There's mages taking Spirit/Mp5 gear cause its 25man gear. That does not mean we need a seperate tier system. If someone isn't getting any tier pieces its cuase they have a crap load of epics already or that token never drops and is in high demand. People are inflating their gear count taking gear they don't need. That's not a problem with the system.

Beiner · Post by **Beiner** » February 10th, 2009, 1:17 pm

Beiner wrote God Damn it!!! WTF is this Sh#$... /gquit ! jk But seriously, I know exactly how Hamline feels. I have 0 tier gear, except the gloves from Sarth that I won on a roll that doesn't count to points. I'm known for digging myself in a hole for picking up minor upgrades that I would use rather full time, rather than it being sharded or off-spec'd since it only helps the raid (like that stupid 2H mace I picked up and used for a day that gave me 20 more AP and 10 more expertise). Worse part is, I have to go against more than half the raid since we have so many DKs and Druids and Mages to really stand a chance. I think something should definately be well defined, but at the same time, we also have to understand the challenge of organizing raids and managing 25 people that constantly interchange.

How do I edit my post???!!! Ugghhh.. /gquit Sorry, probably won't get tired of that for awhile... Anyway, I don't want this to be taken the wrong way. I'm not bitching about tier gear, and I think overall, we see lots of epics and loot that it's tough to complain at this point. Blizz has made the current WoTLK raiding so easy and somewhat boring, we will be doing this shit for the next month or so until something else comes out. We may see certain items more than once, but the amount of upgrades available aren't really worth that much btiching over, its naxx ffs.. I think the tells are great and Wadup is doing a great job leading the raids. Yes, it would help if things were written so it would be clear, but overall things are working. This will probably have to change for something in the futre. BTW - this makes for awesome work reading and passes the time away! Just need more frequent posts damnit!

Beiner · Post by **Beiner** » February 10th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Forgot to add my tally goes up very quickly, since I take tank/dps gear as both main spec. I'm a hybrid feral, not pure dps spec nor tank spec, but come in to do both when needed... Not that I'm QQ'ing.

Benvolo · Post by **Benvolo** » February 10th, 2009, 2:21 pm

First of all Ursa was not kicked over one loot QQ, it seems like you are only seeing what you want to sometimes. There are many things that go on outside of raid chat to decide loot. Often time we talk it over in officer chat when new folks are rolling on hard to get gear. Its really a case by case situation. We will be posting a more descriptive and transparent list of how loot is distributed with our current system. Ulduar will not use this same system, as of right now, we will be going back to DKP for that instance. Side note: Although the loot is based on who has gotten x amount, it still functions the same as DKP in some respects. If someone never raids they have 0 epics, but that doesn't mean that they are going to get a butt ton of gear when they do raid. Effort+Time invested=gear. All loot distribution systems work off this basic principal, and ours is no different. They all have flaws, and ours is no different. Andy

Wadup · Post by **Wadup** » February 10th, 2009, 4:40 pm

I just made an epic post, howevr the forums didnt let me post it, maybe it was too heated! anyway the rules will be up. Also, kind of disappointed in Wapau for attacking me over a situation where i mistakingly gave a druid an item over a clothie, i admitted the mistake to all the affected parties the second i found out, and apologized to them, and they were fine with it. Wapau tended to not post this because it probably went against his post about how i purposefully try to screw people out of loot. Again, i apologize to morbid for my 4 hr fatigue at looking at numbers. The numbers will be posted and a threat about the system will be up before raid dw.

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » February 10th, 2009, 5:49 pm

No, no, no. I'm not attacking anyone. Hell I've given up arguing against this system long ago and am now just trying to perfect it. Wadup you're a great raid leader you shouldn't have to do all the work. And you don't TRY to screw people out of loot. It's just happens because the rules aren't written down where everyone can read and understand them.

It doesn't matter to me anymore. This thread was my last attempt. I've got all but 1 piece of loot I need from Naxx. I'm being cast as the badguy here when all I'm trying to do is help others. I'm top5 dps, I'll start worrying about loot again when I fall down the rankings, till then do whatever you want with it. Hell let's shard all loot, do you know how much Crystals are selling for right now?!

Benvolo · Post by **Benvolo** » February 10th, 2009, 6:13 pm

If you are upset about people making you out to be the bad guy, rant posts after emo gquits tend to result in less than civilized constructive feedback. We all understand that the system was/is not perfect and mistakes were made, and will be made in the future. I could say a lot more, but I won't. The loot rules will be posted. Soon. So lets drop this thread, and go back to killing bosses.

GotCookies · Post by **GotCookies** » February 11th, 2009, 3:12 pm

Out of curiosity could one of you guys define what a new raider is? I have seen refernence towards WhiteTadpole as a new raider, but last checked he was in the top half of people in BC with stored up DKP. So I personally would not consider him a new raider, but than again if the term is applied to only raiding in the most recent expansion than its clear where he is getting that term. I know he did take a few months off from WOW. Will a non-consistant raiders be defined as a new raider? Will there be separate rules to apply for them? I try to raid as often as possible, but raiding consistantly is not somthing I can and am willing to commit to because of my out of WOW life. So I like to be aware of what expectation there will be when I am allowed and able to come raid, specifically when content gets harder. Thanks Cookies PS sorry about spelling, I have no spell check installed.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » February 12th, 2009, 12:58 am

GotCookies wrote Out of curiosity could one of you guys define what a new raider is? I have seen refernence towards WhiteTadpole as a new raider, but last checked he was in the top half of people in BC with stored up DKP. So I personally would not consider him a new raider, but than again if the term is applied to only raiding in the most recent expansion than its clear where he is getting that term. I know he did take a few months off from WOW. Will a non-consistant raiders be defined as a new raider? Will there be separate rules to apply for them? I try to raid as often as possible, but raiding consistantly is not somthing I can and am willing to commit to because of my out of WOW life. So I like to be aware of what expectation there will be when I am allowed and able to come raid, specifically when content gets harder. Thanks Cookies PS sorry about spelling, I have no spell check installed.

I believe it's based on the new content. If you are new to raiding in lich king you are a new raider as far as loot goes. (For example, if we did do dkp it would have been reset anyway.) It's due to the idea that the people that have been raiding naxx are the ones that got us to the point of sapph/KT, not the people who raided in BC. (We have people who never raided in BC for example, but have put a lot of time in Lich King content.) Whitetadpole is a new raider cuase he wasnt rading during all this and he just started again after stuff was getting on farm. As for your second question, Ulduar is going to be using a dkp system. Probaly can expect to be toward the buttom if you arent there much but get more items as its on farm. kinda like BC