Just venting a little bit...

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » January 20th, 2009, 2:01 pm

All this talk about this and that is great, but there has not been one single comment about my Screamshot story... Seriously. GEEZ. Lets all act like the semi-serious adults that we are and make fun of him. Its the right thing to do. Anyways, if someone has a "serious" problem with someone else in a raid or in guild, lemme know and we will discuss and get ya taken care of (not "I just dont like so and so"). On that topic, if I, or another officer/organizer, come to you to discuss an issue in raid or in guild - Its not necessarily us, don't shoot the messenger. And, if for some reason we ask you to sit out of a boss fight, please be respectful because it has obviously been discussed as the best option at the time. Had this happen the other day and the raider just wouldn't let us make the call. Next time it will be a removal from the raid, and the next time it will be no more invites from me. Hanh - you might just have to make those rules and get em posted. Sounds like a good idea to me that will only help in the long run.

Benvolo · Post by **Benvolo** » January 20th, 2009, 4:15 pm

Vegimity wrote

I agree that a big problem has left the guild and i thank the officers for their decision to make a hard call. it is never easy to make that decision.
The Veg

It's really not as hard as you think. Part of me even enjoyed it.

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » January 20th, 2009, 5:01 pm

Vegimity wrote

It has nothing to do with insecurities! it is that i know that i messed up and i dont need someone else pointing it oout to the world. I dont mind an officer psting me to talk about my mistake cuz they are usually obvious anyway. And once again...if it is to someone that you knwo personally that is different that to someone who you dont know. And here comes the fact that the people doing it are not the ones in the position to be doing it. This game is supposed to be fun and people arent having fun cuz others are getting laughs at others expense. You might think it is funny. and it might be okay in your 10 man...but in a 25 man...i am sorry there is no room for that. IMO everyone needs to re-examine your role and stick with it. If we did i think the progress would be a lot better. And also imo there is nothing wrong with not talking on vent. I dont talk a lot cuz it gets jumbled easily in 25 man and i am trying to perfrom my role. I know i am not a leader in the raids so i listen and try my best to follow directions. That is my role and until it changes i prob wont talk a lot. Back when WOTLK first came out and i was orgnizing raids a few times a week with Crusher i did talk more. But that was my role in that raid.

Anyway i think you catch my drift so the end.

The Veg

Most people aren't calling people out in an attempt to pick on them or embarrass them. If it's something that's happening during a fight that's correctable, no one has time to whisper whoever it is and gently let them know about what's going on. They'll call it out over vent and let the people know. If the thing they happen to be doing wrong was part of the reason for the wipe, they'll say it over vent. I don't seem to recall anyone screaming at anyone else or telling them they just suck to their face. They just said what went wrong, and we moved on. We didn't stick to any one thing. And also, that mod calls everyone out, including myself, so no one is exluded from that thing. I was joking with the insecurities thing, but what I meant was is that more than enough people were continually called out for frogger and Thaddius, and no one else felt they were being personally attacked.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » January 20th, 2009, 5:13 pm

Vegimity wrote
It has nothing to do with insecurities! it is that i know that i messed up and i dont need someone else pointing it oout to the world. I dont mind an officer psting me to talk about my mistake cuz they are usually obvious anyway. And once again...if it is to someone that you knwo personally that is different that to someone who you dont know. And here comes the fact that the people doing it are not the ones in the position to be doing it. This game is supposed to be fun and people arent having fun cuz others are getting laughs at others expense. You might think it is funny. and it might be okay in your 10 man...but in a 25 man...i am sorry there is no room for that. IMO everyone needs to re-examine your role and stick with it. If we did i think the progress would be a lot better. And also imo there is nothing wrong with not talking on vent. I dont talk a lot cuz it gets jumbled easily in 25 man and i am trying to perfrom my role. I know i am not a leader in the raids so i listen and try my best to follow directions. That is my role and until it changes i prob wont talk a lot. Back when WOTLK first came out and i was orgnizing raids a few times a week with Crusher i did talk more. But that was my role in that raid.Anyway i think you catch my drift so the end.The Veg

I think the one thing that might be the cause for the divide too is half our raids now didn't raid much during BC. And I got called out on vent a few times from the old raid leaders when things went wrong and I remember others doing the same, but it's always in a way to discuss whats went wrong or to let me know in time-sensitive situations what I'm doing wrong. If my posistion's bad and someone notices in the middle of a fight it's better they just say it on vent and give me a chance to reposistion and save the raid then to wait till after we all wipe. But ya like I said for those of us that raided a lot during Spring/Summer it was nothing out of the ordinary to have someone say on vent "Tsuni you're in the wrong spot move." It may be a little embarassing but at least in my mind it's better for someone to point out I'm doing something wrong while the fight is going on instead of thinking 'hmm i see Tsuni is going to blow the raid up but i dont want to make him feel bad i'll just tell him after we wipe'. This was fairly understood back in BC but I can see how people not used to it could feel singled out in a negative way.

sxycoree · Post by **sxycoree** » January 20th, 2009, 5:30 pm

mahonri wrote All this talk about this and that is great, but there has not been one single comment about my Screamshot story... Seriously. GEEZ. Lets all act like the semi-serious adults that we are and make fun of him. Its the right thing to do.

Being the friend I am I promised Screamshot that I would not openly discuss his "minor" surgery. He confided in us privately and this was his deepest darkest secret. He respected and trusted us enough to tell us, and you completly broke that trust. What kind of friend would do that John? Think about that

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » January 20th, 2009, 5:37 pm

sxycoree wrote mahonri wrote All this talk about this and that is great, but there has not been one single comment about my Screamshot story... Seriously. GEEZ. Lets all act like the semi-serious adults that we are and make fun of him. Its the right thing to do. Being the friend I am I promised Screamshot that I would not openly discuss his "minor" surgery. He confided in us privately and this was his deepest darkest secret. He respected and trusted us enough to tell us, and you completly broke that trust. What kind of friend would do that John? Think about that

No, he told us not to discuss it any further with eachother... He never said anything about not discussing it with the whole world. Now you have broken that part of the agreement by actively discussing it with me. GEEZ.

sxycoree · Post by **sxycoree** » January 20th, 2009, 5:47 pm

mahonri wrote No, he told us not to discuss it any further with eachother... He never said anything about not discussing it with the whole world. Now you have broken that part of the agreement by actively discussing it with me. GEEZ.

Well I missed that memo, so it doesn't count!

Daghi · Post by **Daghi** » January 20th, 2009, 6:13 pm

What frustrates me the most in 25 mans is when the strat is explained clearly and people continually mess up. Watching like 8 people screw up on Thaddius on the 4rth attempt was rediculous, especially since that fight is an easy 1-shot in 10 man. If calling people out prevents something like that then I'm all for it. It should be constructive though. The point is not to tear people down, but to have a successfull raid. If the boss is down people are happy. The previously discussed mod, while spammy and annoying at times sure points out the weak spots in our raid group. If it's the same person coming up over and over again someone needs to talk to them and tell them their doing it wrong and show them what they're supposed to do. You don't always know what caused the wipe "WHO THE HELL MOVED DURING FLAME WREATH???" I remember hearing that phrase all too often. I think better communcation during the raid could solve a lot of this. If you don't know what you're supposed to do on a certain fight you shouldn't feel ashamed to ask. I haven't been there for all the 25 mans so when I come in I usually ask if the fight we're on is different from the 10 man and if so what do I need to do different. No one is going to be mad if you ask a question regarding the fight. People ARE going to be mad if you don't know what you're doing and get the rest of the raid killed.

Fargol · Post by **Fargol** » January 20th, 2009, 6:55 pm

Can you make the mod just let you know? That way you could look for repeating names, and take note, and not disrupt the entire group.

Even if it's just a mod, it's still pointing fingers in raid chat.

kdub · Post by **kdub** » January 20th, 2009, 7:16 pm

K, just to clarify, in my original post I said that the things that bother me are the sarcasm over typing (NOT over vent, I can tell when people are trying to be funny if I can HEAR their tone of voice), the fail crap over raid chat, and the general bad feelings and making fun of others on guild chat. I am ALWAYS happy to have anyone say, "Yo! Kdub! Get out of the freakin void!" No problem. I'm a RL blonde and I need the help sometimes. It is NOT fun to have people call you out on raid/guild chat and say, "You totally screwed up, you suck..." or "Geez, this raid really blows..." or anything else that is similar, because it is not constructive at all. PLEASE always tell me if I am about to die or do something to kill the raid, but DON'T just give a general analysis of sucking when you're pissed off because we just wiped for the 10th time. If you have something that is constructive or will help not wipe the next time, by all means, say it! Otherwise, keep your raging/PMS(MALE and female) to yourself. Sorry I opened such a gigantic can of worms with this, but I'm glad we're figuring it out so we don't have people getting so pissed at something that is supposed to be fun.

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » January 20th, 2009, 8:42 pm

I don't remember anyone saying that the raid blew or telling anyone they totally screwed up and sucked...

Wadup · Post by **Wadup** » January 21st, 2009, 12:48 am

k just gonna say a few things. i dont tend to go t forums but was told by multiple people i should read this

First off, I love the addon, and before you say OMG YOU LIKE PEOPLE GETTING POINTED OUT! let me explain First off its nice for me as a raid leader to know where a problem lies. Im not saying you failed and you are a problem, but I like to know how to help the fight progress. If there is a problem with healing i want to know so i can adjust, if there is a problem with dps i need to know so i can adjust. If there is a problem with tanking or gear i need to know so i can adjust. When someone gets hit by a void or a lava wave, do they send me a tell to tell me they did? no. And i wouldnt either. I know i got hit and thats my fault. HOWEVER! i might not know how to fix the problem. If i am constantly getting hit by the lava wave (which when i first did the fight i did, a lot!) I want to know how to not get hit. By me, the raid leader, knowing who is constantly getting hit by the lava, i can give them help, however! i will prob say on vent a good way to avoid it like i tend to do ( although most people are zzzzing when i talk now adays

)i am here to help. I understand the addon might seem degradinb, but it honestly is not. There are times when i get hit by the void zone, and the addon lets me know that i got hit. Sometimes i dont know i was hit so i dont look at my hp, however as soon as my name appears on the "faild" addon, i know to pop a health pot or my rune thing to keep me or my group up. I got hit by void zone 3x tonight, and no one thought i was a bad player ( except myself

) but so did a lot of others. The addon lets people know,. "hey, you got hit, make sure you are watchign for it next time." simply getting hit by a void zone isnt enough, you need to be told, whether its from an officer "you are getting hit a lot plz try not to" or an addon "you and 5 others got hit, try and watch your positioning." Also, if you do constantly get called out by the addon, then you arent paying attention its that simple. If you are tired of seeing your name (if you havent ignored it yet) ask for help. I have seen all content in the game and have done 3 drakes strategy (no achievement was robbed for a healer to go in -.-) . Dont take it personally though. 2nd reason. I feel that if you are not told by someone else that you did something wrong, you wont be as inclined to change. I am the same way. If i am able to get away with getting hit by lava wave 10x times and no one calls me out and the boss dies, then who cares righty!? By me figuring no one is watching, i am causing myself to not be able to play the game to my full potential. Ok, this sounds elitist right? its not. When you go to cook, do you try to undercook on purpose? if you get an F in class do you not care? I dont know anyone who is happy with failing multiple times on purpose! I understand some people have lag and jsut cant make it safely, not your fault. But if you just dont even try to move knowing you will die the first 10 seconds in the fight and figure that you will get epix for being able to go afk, then there is a problem. You might say that people are being jerks to you, when in reality you are causing 24 other people to have to work harder. I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE IN THE RAID IS LIKE THIS!!! I AM GIVING EXAMPLES!!!! The point is, the addon is not bad, it is a benefit to help people know themselves that something hap[pened and they were not able to get to where they needed to be. Whenever i get called out by the addon, i refocus on what i was doing. When i am constantly watching for waves, peoples dps, healers, tanks health, need to adjust, etc. i can get distracted and by my name being put in raid chat i know to refocus or to jsut not worry as much about the other things and more about my positioning. Raid progression is going fast right now. We arent able to raid for more than 4-5 hrs a night and yet tonight we cleared 2 wings and a boss as fast as other guilds i have been in. PEople are noticing that they are not able to do things faster and they are improving on their own. Raid leaders are able to know where a problem is and address it easier, and I know the addon helped a lot on thaddius. Thaddius was a wreck the first couple times we did it, but people who kept crossing eventually got better as a result, maybe it was because everyone was wiping because of them, but in the end everyone came together and we were able to down thaddius with 3 dps down! THREE DPS DOWN!! thats pretty amazing imo, thats close to achieve status. Even people who kept falling off the ledge learned how to come back safely and everyone pulled together. I will admit i got vetry frustrated at the end, but i too held a lot in and we all came togheter and dropped that fool like its hot. I am not attempting to bash people, if you think the addon is spamming then ignore ofie, he doesnt do anything in raid chat besides it anyway. But imo during a raid fight, no one should be talking in raid chat anyway so those who do find the addon beneficial which is still a good amount of people im gonna say we keep it on. It makes my job easier, it makes people more focused, and it makes for laughs when a certain person gets called out such as myself who brags about being server first but cant even avoid a lava wave

Raid leading in this guild has been a big learning experience for me. I have toned down probably 75% of how i would raid lead a guild such as my aussie guild i was in. I am trying to not pick on people, but at the same time help people to be better than they are. Forged Alliance has a lot of potential but i feel that the guild still hides behind being a casual guild too much. Simply being a casual guild doesnt make you any worse players than hardcore guilds, it just means you dont play as much. That is the only difference. Being "bad" doesnt mean being "casual". I saw plenty "bads" in hardcore guilds that have full cleared this content. There are no "Bads" in forged alliance persay, simply people who are trying their hardest. Naxx strats can be complicating at first and not everyone will get it down, its up to the guild to work togehter to meet the same goals. Good work tonight guys and i am feeling good about full clearing naxx this week!!! will prob be my last post, gonna go hide under my rock till tomorrows raid.

Fargol · Post by **Fargol** » January 21st, 2009, 1:51 am

Maybe it's just me, but I've always much preferred the after the raid analysis of WWS - you can look up who died to what, who took damage from what, etc. I agree, that it's very nice to get a good picture of what's going on. And - if you're reading the mod spam about who failed at what, you're not paying attention to something else.

It's not just about it being a personal bother to me either - /ignoring ofie works just fine. But what if I/others can't talk in vent for some reason, and need to say something to the raid? Pretty good chance that whatever that person has to say is more important than mod spam; and probably the person the comment most important to, won't see it when it's lost in their mod spam.

I'm not saying accountability isn't important, it's just not more important than communication.

draven · Post by **draven** » January 21st, 2009, 2:55 am

criticism and constructive criticism are generally easy to differentiate between. constructive criticism is a necessary part of raiding, whether during or after a raid. as has been said, sarcasm is at times easy to miss in text, and can be a fine line anyway. in 25 person raids, i don't think there is much room or time for extra noise / clutter. everyone should have a raid mod that provides warnings for the encounters. adding additional spam and / or people yelling over the raid leader on vent can be overwhelming to the point of confusion. yes, there are exceptions to this on some encounters, and if someone wants to track something on their own that's fine, but as a general rule i do not think such things helpful. everyone is responsible for learning the mechanics of and their role for each fight. if you are confused about something, ask questions or listen to the explanation of the strategy. beyond that, i would vote to keep raid / vent chat to a minimum for 25 person raids. just my 2¢

Vegimity · Post by **Vegimity** » January 21st, 2009, 11:01 am

Fargol wroteMaybe it's just me, but I've always much preferred the after the raid analysis of WWS - you can look up who died to what, who took damage from what, etc. I agree, that it's very nice to get a good picture of what's going on. And - if you're reading the mod spam about who failed at what, you're not paying attention to something else.It's not just about it being a personal bother to me either - /ignoring ofie works just fine. But what if I/others can't talk in vent for some reason, and need to say something to the raid? Pretty good chance that whatever that person has to say is more important than mod spam; and probably the person the comment most important to, won't see it when it's lost in their mod spam.I'm not saying accountability isn't important, it's just not more important than communication.

The spam is the issue i have with this particular mod. I for one am having issues with my vent so as that i can talk on vent but no one hears me. I am working on it but all my communication comes through /raid chat. I can hear just fine but cant talk to communiate. It sucks but it is what i have to work with. And honestly i think it is stupid that i have to ignore a guildy during every raid. WWS has served us fine in the past and personally i think we should stick with that and keep raid chat open and spam free. If it is a fight learning fight it might help but after that turn the dang thing off and even than i still really done like it. IMO stick with WWS and get rid of the mod. WWS shows more than the mod does anyway and people should be looking at it for guidance not some raid spam mod.

I do want to comment on the raid atmosphere last night though. It was nice to raid without people being negative. It was the first raid in a while i been to that i didnt see people venting their frustrations inappropriately imo. There was critism but it was quite constructive and well done. It isnt really what is being said int he past as much as how it was said.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » January 21st, 2009, 12:13 pm

Im not the biggeset fan of the mod but seriously, if the spam is that bad there's something majorly wrong going on beyond raid chat being cluttered. You know, since the only time it goes off is if someone is doing it wrong.

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » January 21st, 2009, 12:45 pm

Can it be set to report to a raid leader channel or something? This wouldn't let the person know right away, and would put the raid leaders in a position of having to actually talk to those people every time, but at least raid chat would be clear for the majority. All in all though, as we progress and get better this mod should be spamming less. So maybe people just need to watch what they are doing to cut down on raid spam a little? Sometimes I don't pay attention as much as I should either, but I would rather not see my name spammed for getting hit. And, with my health pool I have a little more forgiveness than most people do, but still don't wanna see my name pop up lol.

Daghi · Post by **Daghi** » January 21st, 2009, 2:34 pm

I assume you can set it to what channel you want it to report to. If so I think creating a raid-lead channel for that and other things to be posted would be a good comprimise, that way the people interested get the information on who can't dance right away as opposed to having to wait for 3 wipes and then WWS to be posted to find out AND it'll cut out the raid chat spam.

Wadup · Post by **Wadup** » January 21st, 2009, 3:07 pm

WWS does jack for us while we are doing the fight, its only usefull after we have wiped multiple times to actually find out the issue. Why wait till after the raid when we can just find out the issue during the fight and fix it then and there. Also the only time the addon does spam is when 5+ people get hit by something in which case it doesnt matter if someone had something to say or not since that normally means we wiped. There is nothing wrong with the addon, just ignore ofie if you dont like the spam.

Ofie · Post by **Ofie** » January 21st, 2009, 3:13 pm

Also, I can't set what channel it goes to, it just auto reports in raid. It's a very light addon, there's no options.