Raid Target 6.17, 6.18, 6.19

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » June 18th, 2008, 11:22 pm

In meaning no offense to anyone, I will say this . We started T6 progression before a lot of the people that are now requesting specific T5 bosses were in the guild. Our progression group is ready to be in T6 content. Thanks to Badge Gear and Zul'Aman, we were killing T5 bosses in just 1-3 attempts and then DE/greeding a lot of the loot. If we can get our progression raiders on Tuesday and Thursday, it is a waste of talent/gear to bypass progression/T6 bosses to get the few people that may not be as geared a small chance at an upgrade while the rest of the group is getting offspec gear. Wednesday usually has less of the progression guys on, and then we have a good chunk of people that will use T5 gear in the group and it is beneficial to do SSC or TK. Even then though, our Alar kill tonight had 3 drops, one was sharded, one went for off-spec, and the other went to a healer that already was geared.

Hanh posted in another thread about going back to really get Vashj and Kael worked on after we hit a block in our T6 progression, but until we hit that wall why not get our raiders T6 gear over T5 gear if we have the ability to do so. Alkaia, you got two T6 weaps already, and I've seen other newer members get T6 gear, bypassing a T5 loot upgrades altogether. Heck, I really wanted healing boots off Fathom-lord but we never do him. Instead of pushing for going back to him i just rolled with the flow. Now I have Hyjal healing boots that are way better. I just think if we can kill a boss that 80-90% of the raid can use a drop from, it makes more sense than going back to an old boss where maybe, 20-30% of the people will use a drop from it. (Statistics made up on the spot, woot) I agree with Draven, its about the guild as a whole, not fulfilling a person's loot 'wish list'. If we're killing the bosses, then being undergeared isn't an issue yet.

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » June 18th, 2008, 11:41 pm

"Our progression group is ready to be in T6 content." Tsuni I agree. I really do. But I think the problem comes when we're not able to get our full "progression group" there. Nights like tonight happen. And that is very frustrating. We have to gear alts. If not alternate people then alternate characters. We need flexibility for encounters. Let's just chalk tonight up as a fluke. Fine. But the same thing happened last week when we tried to go to TK. We ended up having to skip Alar after 3 or 4 wipes and move on to VR. I dunno, I get myself confused sometimes as to what I'm really trying to explain here. In my old Counter-Strike teams we used to have team meetings at Star's Cabariet and other fine establishments of the like. It was much easier to explain your point of view in person then it is in text.

Tsuni · Post by **Tsuni** » June 19th, 2008, 12:54 am

Honeslty, last week went bad more cause of the trash since we only had once sheep. We only tried Alar twice which wasn't enough time for the new tanks to get used to the fight, and we went on to one shot Void Reaver, which requires a lot more individual attention. Tonight was more a lot of silly mistakes, until everyone got their head in the game and we downed Alar. Gear doesn't keep people from standing in the flames, killing the birds in the caster group, or some or the other mistakes that happened tonight.

Alkaia - "And so, you want to progress as a guild? Then you have to wait for everyone else to be ready. Yes, there are those who are ready enough to do so, but we haven't even finishd TK/SSC."

Everyone will never be ready. People still needed Kara when we put focus on SSC, but we moved on. One of my old guilds started MC, went to BWL after they killed Rag a few times, and went to AQ40 shortly after killing Nef. All within a month and a half. They had enough people geared and ready to go. They didn't need to wait for most of the raid to get full T1, and then full T2. I read and hear all the time about guilds that stay in specific Tiers till they die waiting for everyone to get ready. As long as most people are ready and progression continues the guild is ready. And honestly, and this isn't to offend anyone, but most of the people not ready are newer members that joined after we started T6. Even then, I've seen these guys go into T6 and hold their own.

Daghi · Post by **Daghi** » June 19th, 2008, 1:21 am

Below is a mishmash of my thoughts. Keep in mind I am not an officer, I have no control over the direction of the guild, if I offended you, then get mad at me, not the guild. Farming stuff isn't fun. I farmed the hell out of MC,BWL,AQ40 and DO NOT want to farm the hell out of GR,MAG,SSC,TK. All the instances loose their magic after the first few times, then it becomes boring montony and I just complain to my friends the whole time about how much SS blows. OMG THIS GUY PLAYS THIS GAME FOR FUN, WTF. I played this game like a job, I played this game to gear other people/alts/terribad players and now I'm over that. Last night was a perfect example of why I continue to play the pve game and why I love raiding w/ FA. We tore through the first 2 bosses, learned the trash and gave an amazing attempt at a new boss. We wiped, I got 0 loot and was out a good 40g but the point is I had fun, Chuunks had fun, Tsuni had fun, it was a good night. Now I play this game for nights like that. If all we still did was farm SSC and TK I would likely wait to log on till 8 - 8:30 when the raid is full and pvp w/ my friends. I LOVE the fact that we just tear into new content and see new stuff with little regard for what we have or haven't cleared that week and until we hit a full on wall there's no reason to stop. The guild is not here to fill out your gear wish list. There are 5-6 items I'd want from SSC/TK but if we never go there again because we're spending our time doing new stuff I couldn't be happier. WoW is not the same game it was Pre-BC, raiding is not the only way to get loot. Badge gear, arena gear, craftable gear are all viable options for filling whatever hole you have in your set. YOU DO NOT "NEED" ANY PIECE OF GEAR FROM SSC, PERIOD. The ONLY exception is possibly the neck you get from the BT attunement quest in which case we have to kill Fathomlord. So I say bring on the new content full steam ahead! ps. I agree w/ what Chuunks said about Vashj and Kael, those fights look challenging and we could learn a lot as raiders by doing those fights.

draven · Post by **draven** » June 19th, 2008, 2:29 am

i should probably qualify my comments with "when i am there". i can't make it to all the raids and specifically i rarely have the opportunity to raid on wednesdays so i have no idea what goes on those days. sometimes we have trouble filling out raids, in which case you are correct and we should step back a bit. is that always going to work out well? probably not, it takes time for new raid makeups to figure things out sometimes. will it suck sometimes? maybe, but that is a matter of opinion. believe me, we have all been there at some point in time. i will almost always vote for pushing beyond what we are capable of, because we never know until we try, and i don't think we've gotten to something that we aren't capable of quite yet.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » June 19th, 2008, 6:59 am

WarmApplePie wrote I guess as an afterthought maybe we should just look into adding a raiding day for alts and or going back and truely farming the older content. SSC in particular.

I think this is the best idea in the thread. We have a few "main raid" nights where we need to push progression. I'm willing to put in the dues to get my fellow raiders geared, however -- I dont want to organize it. Perhaps we (meaning someone not me) can post a signup for an earlier weekend raid? If we get 20ish people, we can probably pug the rest.

Inori · Post by **Inori** » June 19th, 2008, 11:16 am

Chuunks wrote Perhaps we (meaning someone not me) can post a signup for an earlier weekend raid? If we get 20ish people, we can probably pug the rest.

Not being familiar with the guilds of Destromath, are there any Alliance guilds that are in the same boat as us? Could we arrange to farm older content (SSC, TK, Gruul, Mag) with them on an early weekend raid? Even if we do PUG it, I think we should set up a separate DKP database for the raid to encourage more serious attendance for hard to get items. It produced better results when my friend was partially PUGing ZG to farm the raptor mount (which never dropped for him, poor guy). I'd be willing to manage a separate DKP spreadsheet and signup spreadsheet for this if we can get it off the ground. I would need some help figuring out necessary raid composition and leading the actual raid since I'm not familiar enough with the TBC raid encounters to know what doesn't work. The rules for the raid and loot would be as follows: DKP Accrual:
1) Each boss has a fixed point value. Point value would be set in an incentivized manner (e.g., Maulgar would be worth more points than Gruul). Point values range from 1 to 4.
2) Points are accrued jointly on alts and mains. We're looking for warm bodies here that know the fights and could swap back to their overgeared char if needed.
3) DKP spreadsheet is updated after every boss. Worked well for my friend since ZG/AQ20 had a fair amount of trash and he could take a screenshot of the boss kill, alt-tab, and update the spreadsheet during the next two trash pulls. DKP Spending:
4) Items are open bid. Since we are looking for warm bodies, there is no preferential treatment for alts/mains/primary spec/off spec/etc. That being said, if we can partner with another guild, we could add restrictions for useful end-game loot. Also be aware since this is an open bid system, if you bid on an item for an alt that would have been useful for another raider in progression content, people will know about it.
5) Sharded void crystals, high value items (e.g., marks of illidari), etc. will be auctioned off at the end of the raid using a Dutch auction. My friend would do this for bijous at the end of ZG. During the dutch auction, if people are willing to take an item at the same price, they would random to see who went first.
6) Minimum bid is 1 DKP. Raid Spots (optional; if we can reliably form a raid without doing formal signups, it's less work for me):
7) Signups will be done on a first come first served basis initially. List your main and any alts that you intend to bring to the run. Also list if you have to arrive late or leave early.
8) As time goes on, if your signup is unreliable (e.g., too many no-shows, AFK an obscene amount of time), your signup will be taken less seriously.
9) The raid spots will be broken up by boss and list what is needed. 24-48 hours before the run, names will be moved from the signup list to the raid spot list to verify which bosses can be killed. If it looks like a run won't happen based on the roster, an attempt will be made to form up for 10 minutes at the start of the run after which the run is cancelled for that week.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » June 19th, 2008, 12:39 pm

Inori wrote Chuunks wrote Perhaps we (meaning someone not me) can post a signup for an earlier weekend raid? If we get 20ish people, we can probably pug the rest. ... lots of info ...

Hurray! A volunteer!

outplayed · Post by **outplayed** » June 19th, 2008, 2:57 pm

I have a stam heavy FR set as well, I can hit the cap and push 15K unbuffed

zarkk · Post by **zarkk** » June 19th, 2008, 3:05 pm

Regardless wrote I have a stam heavy FR set as well, I can hit the cap and push 15K unbuffed

Another warlock to do FLK. Woot!

Jon · Post by **Jon** » June 19th, 2008, 7:08 pm

Current raid progression: BT and Mount Hyjal - our guild raiding goal is progression, period: if we can we will try. We're not trying to do T6 because we're done with T5 - we're not done, we have the final bosses of TK/SSC to kill still and as mentioned by others, there are gear upgrades for EVERYONE in there. The majority of the guild could still probably use T5 so we're all interested in raiding SSC/TK, it's just a matter of time and priority. We will want to get back in there to kill Vajsh and Kael, we obviously all need those specific T5 tokens. But see above posts of why we don't 'need' that gear to do T6. The key is to not look at what your individual toon needs, but try to see a pattern of time spent vs. gear upgrades. Look at how much gear is sharded, and bosses down vs. time spent, current raid makeup on a given night, etc. That's the decision people organizing the raids have to make, put your raid requests in that context and it's more helpful. Making a case for an instance in just a 'I need this loot' post just comes off as selfish frankly. Well there's no harm in saying it...if you realize it's not going to prompt anybody to change an instance decision for a few pieces of loot people want. Asking 24 other people to spend their time on a drop that may or may not happen is not where we're trying to go. T6 drops have a much better chance of being beneficial to the raid at this time. In addition to that, if you do see your wonderful drop, there's a very good chance you won't get it, unless you have the highest DKP. And if you've put that much effort into making a case to go kill bosses for that one drop, and when it drops you QQ about not getting it....then that's another problem altogether. Lastly, we don't want people to save their dkp for some great item either, our 0-sum system is setup to encourage people to take all minor upgrades to their main/toon spec. It's gear vs. raid progression, our guild culture is raid progression so everything flows into that: gear comes as part of that and that's how we based our dkp system. You will never be guaranteed a drop, so it's not a great focus for how we run. So we're planning on doing T6 until we hit a wall. That could mean amount of time spent on a boss, or the realization that the fight has a mechanic that requires something we don't have: MT who's getting creamed (this is why MT gets preferential treatment by the way, it's a biiig showstopper, but to the above poster that mentioned that we move on to a different instance when the MT is geared up and some select healers, that's simply wrong...our DKP system doesn't allow for preferential treatment for anybody execpt the MT. We gear up the MT so we can get gear easier/faster with less wipes). Another common wall is we simply don't have enough dps/heals combination to get through a fight. Hasn't happened yet, we'll see when it does...we just don't know yet. But when progressing we will wipe all night, maybe additional nights. The key is to learn and get farther into the encounter: to a lot of us in the guild that is the point of raiding, that type of challenge. The biggest wall really is the fight mechanics are too hard for the whole raid, so that should be a big focus or raiders, just learning to raid better and understanding the fights. So when we find that wall, we're going to go back and kill the final bosses in SSC/TK as our raid progression. I think during that time it'll make a lot of sense on concentrating on clearing those instances and help get more guildies into the raid those weeks to get some loot and very importantly, raid experience on those bosses and with raiding in general. But again, please don't go into those raids with the idea that your loot is there waiting to be taken, we'll still be going by dkp.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » June 20th, 2008, 6:38 am

* gets out his reading glasses * (ok -- no I dont really have reading glasses) * days pass * "Yes - what he said"

Pentamino · Post by **Pentamino** » June 21st, 2008, 4:24 am

I just thought I would respond to some of these posts since hey, I was one of the people who set it off. Being one of the new guys to the guild I was thinking it would probably be best not to be thought of one of "those" guys. Let me start off by saying I know what you guys are feeling, lack of progress certaintly is frustrating when your guild isn't even trying, and this is one of the reasons I really like this guild, you guys are not afraid of attempting new things, and getting them done. I like the way this guild runs, when there is a wipe, someone is not called out, but taken simply as a learning tool. It's cool, a mix of casual, with a hardcore guild that knows what they are doing. As I said before, I am the new guy, I haven't been in this guild for that long, nor have I been in SSC/TK for an extended period. When I made my post I had simply forgotten the progression of the guild, and seeing as Hydross is in the same instance, why not? No, I was not thinking about shadow resistance, or the easliy attainable t5 shoulders from VR, I was simply speeking for my own benifit, and I see the issue in this, and for that I apologize. You see, I simply have not been farming SSC nearly as long as you guys, it's just not the same feeling I'm sure you would feel doing the same exact boss week after week, getting no chance of loot. And I hope that in the future we see even more progress, I too grow sick from farming instances, and don't let party poopers like me get in the way, call me out like you did =)

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » June 21st, 2008, 9:02 am

I don't think we have really been "Farming" SSC for long. Seems that when we did finally start into it was about the same time badge gear beacame really good and what we did get out of SSC was shard, shard, slight upgrade that nobody wants to pay dkp for, shard, shard, slight upgrade that nobody wants to pay dkp for, shard, usable item, shard. It didn't really seem worth it and was extremely frustrating. I am positive that we will be venturing back into SSC for LV soon, and will probably hit up some of those bosses on the way.